Simviation Forum - It's good to talk...

Reply #15 - Sep 26^th, 2006 at 11:49am

dcunning30 Offline
Colonel
This is me......really!!!!
The Land of Nod

Gender:
Posts: 1612

Quote:

As for dcunnings comment I can't make head nor tail of it as we're refering to older incidents and shooting your mates... methinks he didn't read the comment clearly or didn't understand what a blue on blue means.
Friendly-fire, what a SICK term Sad

Fair statement. I didn't know what a blue on blue was. I misunderstood the context.

TURKEY TROTS TO WATER GG WHERE IS RPT WHERE IS TASK FORCE 34 RR THE WORLD WONDERS

Back to top

IP Logged

Reply #16 - Sep 26^th, 2006 at 12:02pm

dcunning30 Offline
Colonel
This is me......really!!!!
The Land of Nod

Gender:
Posts: 1612

Quote:

As I get older & arguably wiser I'm not convinced that patriotism is such a good thing. I was fiercely patriotic once. I now believe it's the cause of a lot of trouble in this world.

I disagree, it is not patriotism that causes trouble in the world. It is the lack of willingness to agree to live peacefully. As long as you have despots in the world, as long as your have megalomaniacal leaders bent on acting out their desires in the world, as long as you have sponsors of terrorism in the world, as long as you have dishonest brokers on the international scene in the world, there will be war. It has been like that since the beginning of time. Patriotism plays no part in this.

We all wish we can discuss our differences and come to agreements that will be *honestly* implemented, we can avoid wars. If there are cheats, thieves, and bullies in our societies that must be reigned in by law enforecement, how can anyone expect things to be different on a much greater, international scale?

Perfect analogy is fans of a sports team. They are "patriotic" towards that team. They want their team to win. There's nothing wrong with that. But what happens to the minority who go on rampages for their team, such as those hooligans? Are they hooligans because they are sports fans? Or are they hooligans because they lack character in the first place?

TURKEY TROTS TO WATER GG WHERE IS RPT WHERE IS TASK FORCE 34 RR THE WORLD WONDERS

Back to top

IP Logged

Reply #17 - Sep 26^th, 2006 at 12:16pm

Hagar Offline
Colonel
My Spitfire Girl
Costa Geriatrica

Posts: 33159

Quote:

I disagree, it is not patriotism that causes trouble in the world.

Maybe not but patriotism is a weapon used by unscrupulous leaders to achieve their aims. Blind loyalty to your cause is a form of mass hypnotism, brainwashing, call it what you like. It's an extreme example but you only have to watch footage of the rallies held in Nazi Germany to see what I mean.

Founder & Sole Member - Grumpy's Over the Hill Club for Veteran Virtual Aviators
Member of the Fox Four Group

Need help? Try Grumpy's Lair

My photo gallery

Back to top

IP Logged

Reply #18 - Sep 26^th, 2006 at 1:06pm

ozzy72 Offline
Global Moderator
Pretty scary huh?
Madsville

Gender:
Posts: 37122

Or read Mr. Mugabes comments today on protesters being beaten so badly they're in hospital courtesy of the Zimbabwe police... and he says it is justified because they're being unpatriotic Roll Eyes

There are two types of aeroplane, Spitfires and everything else that wishes it was a Spitfire!

Back to top

IP Logged

Reply #19 - Sep 26^th, 2006 at 1:31pm

Brett_Henderson Offline
Colonel
EVERY OUTER MARKER SHOULD
BE AN NDB

Gender:
Posts: 3593

I think, one of many things appreciated by both Western Europeans and North Americans (I guess that's Western Civilization in general, hu ?), is constructive patriotism. It's born of freedom. When you're free to feel un-patriotic, it kinda makes you more patriotic.

Before goof-balls like Hitler can muster the blind, destructive patriotism, they must first start whittling away at freedom... then go about annexing populations... as opposed to people striving to join their population.

The patriotism I cherish... is when you know in your heart that where you live is special, you're proud of it.. and you'd like it to stay that way.

Back to top

IP Logged

Reply #20 - Sep 26^th, 2006 at 2:26pm

Hagar Offline
Colonel
My Spitfire Girl
Costa Geriatrica

Posts: 33159

This is quite terrifying. Organised patriotism by past masters of the craft. Watch & be warned. http://youtube.com/watch?v=eHZGjmH-nNE&mode=related&search=

PS. This is rare & interesting archive footage. Please take no notice of the ignorant comments attached to it.

Founder & Sole Member - Grumpy's Over the Hill Club for Veteran Virtual Aviators
Member of the Fox Four Group

Need help? Try Grumpy's Lair

My photo gallery

Back to top

IP Logged

Reply #21 - Sep 26^th, 2006 at 2:28pm

dcunning30 Offline
Colonel
This is me......really!!!!
The Land of Nod

Gender:
Posts: 1612

That's not patriotism. That's jingoism.

I still maintain, patriotism is a good thing. Jingoism is not.

TURKEY TROTS TO WATER GG WHERE IS RPT WHERE IS TASK FORCE 34 RR THE WORLD WONDERS

Back to top

IP Logged

Reply #22 - Sep 26^th, 2006 at 2:33pm

Hagar Offline
Colonel
My Spitfire Girl
Costa Geriatrica

Posts: 33159

jingoism

n

1: an appeal intended to arouse patriotic emotions [syn: flag waving]
2: fanatical patriotism [syn: chauvinism, superpatriotism, ultranationalism]

Founder & Sole Member - Grumpy's Over the Hill Club for Veteran Virtual Aviators
Member of the Fox Four Group

Need help? Try Grumpy's Lair

My photo gallery

Back to top

IP Logged

Reply #23 - Sep 26^th, 2006 at 2:50pm

dcunning30 Offline
Colonel
This is me......really!!!!
The Land of Nod

Gender:
Posts: 1612

Quote:

jingoism

n

1: an appeal intended to arouse patriotic emotions [syn: flag waving]
2: fanatical patriotism [syn: chauvinism, superpatriotism, ultranationalism]

Looking at that logically, if 1 were true, then 2 would be patriotism and no more. However, in the common lexacon in use, 2 is more the accurate definition. It describes jingoism as something more than mere patriotism, as in superpatriotism, ultranationalism, or even chauvinism. This is something more than patriotism, as obsession is something more than love. We can all agree love is good, but obsession is not.

I have yet to see an argument that can substancially and logically describe patriotism as something that is negative.

If patriotism were something that, it appears you're describing, as something negative, then there's a whole lot of negativity going on every 4 years during the Olympics.

TURKEY TROTS TO WATER GG WHERE IS RPT WHERE IS TASK FORCE 34 RR THE WORLD WONDERS

Back to top

IP Logged

Reply #24 - Sep 26^th, 2006 at 3:02pm

Hagar Offline
Colonel
My Spitfire Girl
Costa Geriatrica

Posts: 33159

Quote:

I have yet to see an argument that can substancially and logically describe patriotism as something that is negative.

If patriotism were something that, it appears you're describing, as something negative, then there's a whole lot of negativity going on every 4 years during the Olympics.

Patriotism (being proud of your country) is fine up to a point & providing it's not taken too far. Unfortunately it can easily get out of hand. That vid is an extreme example of how the enthusiasm of young people can be taken advantage of by unscrupulous people for their own ends. It's usually far more subtle than that.

If only all arguments could be settled at something like the Olympics instead of all this fighting & conflict.

Founder & Sole Member - Grumpy's Over the Hill Club for Veteran Virtual Aviators
Member of the Fox Four Group

Need help? Try Grumpy's Lair

My photo gallery

Back to top

IP Logged

Reply #25 - Sep 26^th, 2006 at 3:23pm

Brett_Henderson Offline
Colonel
EVERY OUTER MARKER SHOULD
BE AN NDB

Gender:
Posts: 3593

I think we're splitting hairs over an adjective; applied, assumed or otherwise..

Loyalty is good. Blind loyalty is not good.

Love is good. Obsessive love is not good.

Patriotism is good. (pick your adjective) patriotism is not good.

Back to top

IP Logged

Reply #26 - Sep 26^th, 2006 at 3:34pm

dcunning30 Offline
Colonel
This is me......really!!!!
The Land of Nod

Gender:
Posts: 1612

Quote:

Patriotism (being proud of your country) is fine up to a point & providing it's not taken too far.

That's how I define patriotism. When one's behavior evolves into jingosim, then that can lead to destructive behavior.

TURKEY TROTS TO WATER GG WHERE IS RPT WHERE IS TASK FORCE 34 RR THE WORLD WONDERS

Back to top

IP Logged

Reply #27 - Sep 26^th, 2006 at 3:38pm

dcunning30 Offline
Colonel
This is me......really!!!!
The Land of Nod

Gender:
Posts: 1612

Quote:

Or read Mr. Mugabes comments today on protesters being beaten so badly they're in hospital courtesy of the Zimbabwe police... and he says it is justified because they're being unpatriotic Roll Eyes

That's like saying "if you love me you'll do <fill in the blank>"

Because "patriotic" or "love" is used as a justification for destructive behavior, than doesn't mean the word used as an excuse is, in fact, destructive.

TURKEY TROTS TO WATER GG WHERE IS RPT WHERE IS TASK FORCE 34 RR THE WORLD WONDERS

Back to top

IP Logged

Reply #28 - Sep 26^th, 2006 at 3:40pm

Hagar Offline
Colonel
My Spitfire Girl
Costa Geriatrica

Posts: 33159

Quote:

When one's behavior evolves into jingosim, then that can lead to destructive behavior.

Jingoism = flag waving. My country is a past master at that. It's where the term originated after all & we've had plenty of practice. We're also hated all over the world for it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jingoism

Founder & Sole Member - Grumpy's Over the Hill Club for Veteran Virtual Aviators
Member of the Fox Four Group

Need help? Try Grumpy's Lair

My photo gallery

Back to top

IP Logged

Reply #29 - Sep 26^th, 2006 at 3:52pm

dcunning30 Offline
Colonel
This is me......really!!!!
The Land of Nod

Gender:
Posts: 1612

Quote:

Jingoism = flag waving. My country is a past master at that. It's where the term originated after all & we've had plenty of practice. We're also hated all over the world for it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jingoism

Mere flag waving is insufficient of a definition. A patriotic person may wave a flag. A jingoistic person may also wave a flag. But the link you provided it much more accurately describes jingoism beyond merely calling it flag waving:

Jingoism is a term describing chauvinistic patriotism, usually with a hawkish political stance. In practice, it refers to sections of the general public who advocate bullying other countries or using whatever means necessary to safeguard a country's national interests.

But to be honest, I don't understand why we are having to debate the differences between jingoism and patriotism. The differences are obvious. But it is unfortunate that people are referring to jingoism, but are mis-labelling it as patriotism.

TURKEY TROTS TO WATER GG WHERE IS RPT WHERE IS TASK FORCE 34 RR THE WORLD WONDERS

Back to top

IP Logged

	Search the archive: