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Skin And Bones Function (Read 2130 times)

Sep 4^th, 2006 at 11:41pm

Katahu Offline
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Some of you have already seen this video before but there was one thing that came up as I was listening closely to the video.

mms://70.85.182.98/airsidetv/fs10feature.wmv

About 10 minutes into the video [when they talk about the glider] the speaker in the video mention that the skin-and-bones function is involved with the flex wings.

I have modeled human figures in Gmax before and have animated them using the skin-and-bones function using inverse kinetics just for the heck of it. For those of you who have created addons with wingflexing, you should know by now that FS9 doesn't support this feature especially for wingflexing and that the only way to achieve wingflexing in FS9 is to simply animate the wings in the same manner as any other object in Gmax or FSDS. But now that the speaker in the video mentions it in regards to the wingflex, I am beginning to wonder if the tow feature is involved with this as well. How this feature can be further exploited for future addons is also on my mind.

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Reply #1 - Sep 5^th, 2006 at 8:22am

Ashton Lawson Offline
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Well well well...

I will give this short explanation. There are two basic types of skinning I know of. The first is within software, so the application does all the vertex maipulation. The second is in the graphics card.

In FSX, the wings don't use a graphics card to do the flexing through skinning. I know this, because my graphics card doesn't support the skinning, yet the 747 seen in the demo still flexes, but jerkily.

However, I think the people use the skinning feature, because when I fly the ultralight, and bank left and right, my pilot's arms move left and right with the bar, but the arms remain stationary (this is quite hilarious Grin

Grin

).

Hope that answers your question. Though the chances are, some 'experienced' people/know-it-alls are gonna correct me on something, but thats what forums are for right? Wink

Wink

Speaking of which, people say that they get no pilot in the demo Baron 58. I get the pilot, but he's grey. No textures. Maybe new graphics cards elimate geometry with no textures. Anyone got a theory on this? ???

&&FS Water Configurator+ has new modifications in the works, plus DirectX 10, Service Pack&&1, and Radeon HD 3+ Series support.

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Reply #2 - Sep 5^th, 2006 at 10:02am

Katahu Offline
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Quote:

Speaking of which, people say that they get no pilot in the demo Baron 58. I get the pilot, but he's grey. No textures. Maybe new graphics cards elimate geometry with no textures. Anyone got a theory on this?

Now that's strange. If the pilot was built into the aircraft model like we normally do with FS9-based addons, then the pilot should appear already. But with the notion of the skin-and-bones feature, I'm guessing the ACES team have programmed the pilot figures differently.

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Reply #3 - Sep 5^th, 2006 at 1:56pm

Fr. Bill Offline
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A picture is worth a thousand words. Here is an example of I-K Animation of 'skin' as used in FSX for both scenery and aircraft models. Note that for this to function as intended, Shader 2.0 or above is necessary, otherwise the animations will fail and the object(s) will fallback to static positions.

When in the sim, the flag will not only 'wave' but will rotate according to the wind direction. It is not however programmed to respond to wind speed... Wink

Wink

Bill
Gauge Programming - 3d Modeling Eaglesoft Development Group Intel Core 2 Quad Q6600-4GB DDR2 Crucial PC6400-800 GB SATA-ATI Radeon HD2400 Pro 256MB DX10 NOTE: Unless explicitly stated in the post, everything written by my hand is MY opinion. I do NOT speak for any company, real or imagined...

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Reply #4 - Sep 5^th, 2006 at 2:16pm

Katahu Offline
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This may explain why the pilot figure's arms in the ultralite were stationary while its hand were moving with the wings. It's most likely that the bones were not properly linked to the arms. If bones and I-K are really implimented in FSX then this could mean a lot of things such as allowing me to link my driver's arms in the car model's steering wheel without having to create seperate, animated objects for the fore arms and upperarms [which can be very complex for the heirarchy export method].

Please note that my drivers' main bodies [if you notice the drivers in the Ferrari and Chevy] are single-piece objects that were modeled using box-modeling mixed in with meshsmooth modifiers. With IK, I can link the arms of the single-piece bodies without having to detach and seperately animate the arms. All I would do is simply link the arms to the steering wheel which is already animated.

However, this is just my opinion and I have only heard of this function only once in the video that I posted. On top of that, IK was not listed in the list of FSX features. So, for all I know, I could be wrong.

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Reply #5 - Sep 5^th, 2006 at 10:02pm

Fr. Bill Offline
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Quote:

However, this is just my opinion and I have only heard of this function only once in the video that I posted. On top of that, IK was not listed in the list of FSX features. So, for all I know, I could be wrong.

Er, just above here I showed a picture of an I-K animated flag that works in FSX...

Among other things, the 'wing flex' in the glider and heavies is done using I-K animated "bones" and "skin," as are the pilots... 8)

Bill
Gauge Programming - 3d Modeling Eaglesoft Development Group Intel Core 2 Quad Q6600-4GB DDR2 Crucial PC6400-800 GB SATA-ATI Radeon HD2400 Pro 256MB DX10 NOTE: Unless explicitly stated in the post, everything written by my hand is MY opinion. I do NOT speak for any company, real or imagined...

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Reply #6 - Sep 5^th, 2006 at 10:12pm

Katahu Offline
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Er, just above here I showed a picture of an I-K animated flag that works in FSX...

All I have seen is a IK-animated flag. Since the FSX SDKs are not even out, I have to remain somewhat skeptical of my own observation.

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Reply #7 - Sep 6^th, 2006 at 8:00am

cleobis Offline
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err......I think what n4gix is trying to say is that he "knows" that it will work in FSX Wink

Wink

&&*** Força Aérea Portuguesa *** www.emfa.pt/

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Reply #8 - Sep 6^th, 2006 at 11:07am

Katahu Offline
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err......I think what n4gix is trying to say is that he "knows" that it will work in FSX Wink

Wink

oh well.

Wink

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Reply #9 - Sep 6^th, 2006 at 11:59am

Fr. Bill Offline
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Quote:

All I have seen is a IK-animated flag. Since the FSX SDKs are not even out, I have to remain somewhat skeptical of my own observation.

Along with 300+ other freeware and payware developers, I've been working with ACES since October of last year...

I've had the FSX SDK's for several months now. In addition, anyone who has the "Fileplanet Beta" version also has the FSX SDK's available in the folder cleverly named: \SDK... Grin

Grin

Bill
Gauge Programming - 3d Modeling Eaglesoft Development Group Intel Core 2 Quad Q6600-4GB DDR2 Crucial PC6400-800 GB SATA-ATI Radeon HD2400 Pro 256MB DX10 NOTE: Unless explicitly stated in the post, everything written by my hand is MY opinion. I do NOT speak for any company, real or imagined...

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Reply #10 - Sep 6^th, 2006 at 12:01pm

Katahu Offline
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I didn't know the SDKs came with the beta. ???

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Reply #11 - Sep 8^th, 2006 at 1:53am

Ashton Lawson Offline
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What, they should post the SDKs on the website!!! Angry

Angry

Then we can prepare!!!!!!!

&&FS Water Configurator+ has new modifications in the works, plus DirectX 10, Service Pack&&1, and Radeon HD 3+ Series support.

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Reply #12 - Sep 8^th, 2006 at 2:01am

Ashton Lawson Offline
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So u can model in 3ds max now? Thats great for me! I use 3ds max more than gmax nowadays, and u can export to 3ds format with 3dsmax, gmax only to p3d and stuff (unless u pay for export modules (which i dont)) Grin

Grin

&&FS Water Configurator+ has new modifications in the works, plus DirectX 10, Service Pack&&1, and Radeon HD 3+ Series support.

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Reply #13 - Sep 8^th, 2006 at 1:30pm

Fr. Bill Offline
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What, they should post the SDKs on the website!!! Angry

Angry

Then we can prepare!!!!!!!

As with FSX itself, the SDKs are still incomplete and subject to revision, so what would be the point? Those with the FP beta have access to what has been released thus far, but they remain in fact 'beta SDKs'... Wink

Wink

Bill
Gauge Programming - 3d Modeling Eaglesoft Development Group Intel Core 2 Quad Q6600-4GB DDR2 Crucial PC6400-800 GB SATA-ATI Radeon HD2400 Pro 256MB DX10 NOTE: Unless explicitly stated in the post, everything written by my hand is MY opinion. I do NOT speak for any company, real or imagined...

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Reply #14 - Sep 9^th, 2006 at 6:23am

Ashton Lawson Offline
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Oh.

But still, can u use 3dsmax instead of gmax now?

&&FS Water Configurator+ has new modifications in the works, plus DirectX 10, Service Pack&&1, and Radeon HD 3+ Series support.

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Reply #15 - Sep 9^th, 2006 at 11:58am

Fr. Bill Offline
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Quote:

Oh.

But still, can u use 3dsmax instead of gmax now?

Well, FP Beta users can't, because the SDKs included are incomplete.

"Official" Beta users are testing out the new tools with mixed results so far. It ain't soup yet! Grin

Grin

Bill
Gauge Programming - 3d Modeling Eaglesoft Development Group Intel Core 2 Quad Q6600-4GB DDR2 Crucial PC6400-800 GB SATA-ATI Radeon HD2400 Pro 256MB DX10 NOTE: Unless explicitly stated in the post, everything written by my hand is MY opinion. I do NOT speak for any company, real or imagined...

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Reply #16 - Sep 10^th, 2006 at 3:52am

Ashton Lawson Offline
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At least its gonna be soup! Grin

Grin

&&FS Water Configurator+ has new modifications in the works, plus DirectX 10, Service Pack&&1, and Radeon HD 3+ Series support.

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Reply #17 - Sep 11^th, 2006 at 6:20am

Sterk Offline
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Quote:

On top of that, IK was not listed in the list of FSX features. So, for all I know, I could be wrong.

Why?IK was listed as a FSX feature and mentioned several times in intreviews with developers.What I cant say about skinning feature and bones.Never heard that FSX supports vertex animation(wich the skinning is).
Cause supporting IK feature does not automatically means supporting skinning-these are two completely
different things.But if FSX will really support vertex animation its great.

&&&&

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Reply #18 - Sep 11^th, 2006 at 11:16am

Katahu Offline
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Why?IK was listed as a FSX feature and mentioned several times in intreviews with developers.

Pardon me, but I have read most of the reviews [especially the major ones] and I have yet to have find any mention of them. From what n4gix pointed out and from what I have gathered, it seems to have only been mentioned in just the video listed above [which isn't obvious at first] and in the FSX Beta SDKs [which I don't have obviously].

If it was mentioned in the reviews and interviews then I need a visit to the eye doctor.

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Reply #19 - Sep 11^th, 2006 at 11:43am

Fr. Bill Offline
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Why?IK was listed as a FSX feature and mentioned several times in intreviews with developers.What I cant say about skinning feature and bones.Never heard that FSX supports vertex animation(wich the skinning is).
Cause supporting IK feature does not automatically means supporting skinning-these are two completely
different things.But if FSX will really support vertex animation its great.

You know the saying that "a picture speaks a thousand words?"

Apparently it doesn't always... I posted a screenshot of I-K animation complete with vertex animation (animated flag) as displayed in Max8 previously in this thread.

Here then is an animated GIF file showing the complete rig IN FSX... Although only five frames captured in no particular sequence, it's clearly demonstrating that I-K animation and vertex animation is supported... 8)

Note that the flag is aligned with the wind, as can be seen by the cloud movement... Grin

Grin

Bill
Gauge Programming - 3d Modeling Eaglesoft Development Group Intel Core 2 Quad Q6600-4GB DDR2 Crucial PC6400-800 GB SATA-ATI Radeon HD2400 Pro 256MB DX10 NOTE: Unless explicitly stated in the post, everything written by my hand is MY opinion. I do NOT speak for any company, real or imagined...

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Reply #20 - Sep 11^th, 2006 at 11:47am

Katahu Offline
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Nice. How long did it take you to put that together?

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Reply #21 - Sep 11^th, 2006 at 11:52am

Fr. Bill Offline
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Quote:

Nice. How long did it take you to put that together?

Which? The oil-rig or the animated GIF?

The oil-rig is a "test .max file" supplied with the SDK to allow folks to test their installation and compile tools. It took about a half hour to get set up, export and place the oil-rig at KSEA.

The animated GIF took about ten minutes... Wink

Wink

Note also the shadows & illumination cast by the 'beacon' of the Bell 206 on the empennage and stabilizers.

Please believe me that when I speak of things "FSX," I'm doing so from actual knowledge, not merely supposition or conjecture... Tongue

Tongue

Bill
Gauge Programming - 3d Modeling Eaglesoft Development Group Intel Core 2 Quad Q6600-4GB DDR2 Crucial PC6400-800 GB SATA-ATI Radeon HD2400 Pro 256MB DX10 NOTE: Unless explicitly stated in the post, everything written by my hand is MY opinion. I do NOT speak for any company, real or imagined...

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Reply #22 - Sep 11^th, 2006 at 9:03pm

Sterk Offline
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n4gix

I didnt say I dont believe you that FSX supports skinning-I just said I never read about supporting this feature by FSX before...Anyway-this is great news and means extremely new level of addons...

For Katahu-note the date:

http://blogs.msdn.com/sebby1234/archive/2006/04/08/568204.aspx

p.s.by the way-n4gix-why crane's hook is moving-is it affected by wind or just animated manually?
If it's moved by wind daz it mean that ALL elements of enviroment or aircraft,wich skinned and boned properly will be affected by wind in the sim?

&&&&

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Reply #23 - Sep 12^th, 2006 at 12:12am

Ashton Lawson Offline
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Lets hope so. That'll be cool! (except for the people who cant IK properly...)

&&FS Water Configurator+ has new modifications in the works, plus DirectX 10, Service Pack&&1, and Radeon HD 3+ Series support.

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Reply #24 - Sep 12^th, 2006 at 2:47pm

Fr. Bill Offline
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Quote:

p.s.by the way-n4gix-why crane's hook is moving-is it affected by wind or just animated manually?
If it's moved by wind daz it mean that ALL elements of enviroment or aircraft,wich skinned and boned properly will be affected by wind in the sim?

As Sebby noted in his blog entry, any part may now have more than one 'animation' trigger/track applied, which means that yes, the crane's hook is 'swinging' according to the ambient wind's direction and speed.

I'm looking forward to actually learning the full potential of this new technique, so that I can rebuild the CAPS (Cirrus Airframe Parachute System) for our Eaglesoft SR20 and SR22 aircraft. In FS9 I was limited to modeling essentially a chained series of animations that only provide an illusion of rocket deployment, chute opening, descent and collapse...

Now, I should be able to generate a single sequence that will smoothly transition from 'deployment rocket' to 'chute collapse'... Grin

Grin

Bill
Gauge Programming - 3d Modeling Eaglesoft Development Group Intel Core 2 Quad Q6600-4GB DDR2 Crucial PC6400-800 GB SATA-ATI Radeon HD2400 Pro 256MB DX10 NOTE: Unless explicitly stated in the post, everything written by my hand is MY opinion. I do NOT speak for any company, real or imagined...

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Reply #25 - Sep 12^th, 2006 at 4:10pm

USMC_BEANS Offline
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You guys are all brilliant! Shocked

Shocked

I can't wait to see what you all come up with in FSX. Thank you all for your hard work and tireless dedication to making a great game even better (and usually doing it for free!).

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Reply #26 - Sep 13^th, 2006 at 11:37pm

Ashton Lawson Offline
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Cool stuff. FSX is gonna be extremely advanced and realistic...

&&FS Water Configurator+ has new modifications in the works, plus DirectX 10, Service Pack&&1, and Radeon HD 3+ Series support.

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Reply #27 - Sep 14^th, 2006 at 1:00am

SkyNoz Offline
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Nice, this may possibally add the function of movable ground characters loading, bag's and also doing little mechanical duties around the aircraft lol. It will be very interessting to see the outcome and universal output behind every option of design.

possibally ground animals, will be [cough]altered and modified to perform human like functions lol[/cough]

Grin

Grin

8)

Project Kfir!&&&&My Gmax page&&Aircraft modeler/Aircarft painter&&&&Aye the key!&&[GeneralEngineData]&&//0=Piston, 1=Jet, 2=None, 3=Helo-Turbine, 4=Rocket, 5=Turboprop

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Reply #28 - Sep 14^th, 2006 at 5:09am

Ashton Lawson Offline
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It would be funny if someone made a human character, and accidently made the bones react to wind... Grin

Grin

Hey!
About the towline thing, is that using bones? Cuz if it is, then people can then simulate both probe and drogue mid-air refueling. With drogue, use lots of bones, with probe, single. Or the other way around (i'm not quite sure which is which...)

&&FS Water Configurator+ has new modifications in the works, plus DirectX 10, Service Pack&&1, and Radeon HD 3+ Series support.

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Reply #29 - Sep 14^th, 2006 at 9:35am

JBaymore Offline
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Quote:

Nice, this may possibally add the function of movable ground characters loading, bag's and also doing little mechanical duties around the aircraft lol. It will be very interessting to see the outcome......

Oh boy.... this means that some virtual baggage handler can now throw some virtual suitcase 10 feet down to the steel deck of the virtual baggage cart, thereby breaking the virtual contents. As real as it gets! Grin

Grin

best,

...........john

Intel i7 960 quad 3.2G LGA 1366, Asus P6X58D Premium, 750W Corsair, 6 gig 1600 DDR3, Spinpoint 1TB 7200 HD, Caviar 500G 7200 HD, GTX275 1280M, Logitec Z640, Win7 Pro 64b, CH Products yoke, pedals + throttle quad, simpit

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Reply #30 - Sep 14^th, 2006 at 12:18pm

Felix/FFDS Offline
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Quote:

It would be funny if someone made a human character, and accidently made the bones react to wind... Grin

Grin

Your sly remark gets noted.....

translation - str1ker wants to see an animated figure reacting to (another's breaking) wind....

Now that would inlcude animated textures!!

Felix/FFDS

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Reply #31 - Sep 15^th, 2006 at 3:51am

Ashton Lawson Offline
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What do u mean by noted?

anyway, i didn't mean wind, but actual wind like the stuff that makes flags flap about. It would be funny if you saw a guy in FSX on the ground with his hands and legs flapping in the wind...

&&FS Water Configurator+ has new modifications in the works, plus DirectX 10, Service Pack&&1, and Radeon HD 3+ Series support.

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Reply #32 - Sep 15^th, 2006 at 4:24am

Felix/FFDS Offline
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Rule #1 of Simviation: " Anything you post may be (and probably will be) twisted and reshaped to suit the whims of a bored moderator....!"

Felix/FFDS

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Reply #33 - Sep 15^th, 2006 at 11:44am

Fr. Bill Offline
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Quote:

Rule #1 of Simviation: " Anything you post may be (and probably will be) twisted and reshaped to suit the whims of a bored moderator....!"

Absolutely, Felix. Actually, the image brought to mind was a human figure standing with the wife's best friend swinging in the breeze... Shocked

Shocked

Bill
Gauge Programming - 3d Modeling Eaglesoft Development Group Intel Core 2 Quad Q6600-4GB DDR2 Crucial PC6400-800 GB SATA-ATI Radeon HD2400 Pro 256MB DX10 NOTE: Unless explicitly stated in the post, everything written by my hand is MY opinion. I do NOT speak for any company, real or imagined...

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Reply #34 - Sep 16^th, 2006 at 2:27am

Ashton Lawson Offline
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Hey, here's an idea.

Hair. if u had a woman with long hair standing in a breeze, bones could make the hair wavy...

by the way Felix, u bored?

&&FS Water Configurator+ has new modifications in the works, plus DirectX 10, Service Pack&&1, and Radeon HD 3+ Series support.

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Reply #35 - Sep 16^th, 2006 at 6:11pm

Katahu Offline
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I like the parachute idea. Sounds radical. 8)

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