Simviation Forum - May 24, 1941 The Bismarck sinks HMS Hood

May 24^th, 2006 at 12:12pm

Felix/FFDS Offline
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1941 The Bismarck sinks the Hood

On this day in 1941, Germany's largest battleship, the Bismarck, sinks the pride of the British fleet, HMS Hood.

Felix/FFDS

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Reply #1 - May 24^th, 2006 at 12:49pm

Ijineda Offline
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On this day in 1941, Germany's largest battleship, the Bismarck, sinks the pride of the British fleet, HMS Hood.

With less than three shots if I remember correctly!

But then again, in three days the day will come where the immobilized Bismarck itself was sunk by half of the british navy together....

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Reply #2 - May 24^th, 2006 at 1:05pm

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But then again, in three days the day will come where the immobilized Bismarck itself was sunk by half of the british navy together....

Not true.. The german crew sunk bismarck themselves with a bomb to aviod being totally killed by the bombardment by the britisth destroyers.

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Reply #3 - May 24^th, 2006 at 1:31pm

Felix/FFDS Offline
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Not true.. The german crew sunk bismarck themselves with a bomb to aviod being totally killed by the bombardment by the britisth destroyers.

Don't forget, the "official" history of the time indicated that the Bismarck was sunk by the RN.... Truth be told, it ended up being scuttled, but then, it was a matter of time. In the end, it's 6 of one, half a dozen of the other. Scuttling the ship only brought the end sooner.

The RN did the job of hunting, hurting, crippling and fatally wounding the ship.

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Reply #4 - May 24^th, 2006 at 1:38pm

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In the event that this thread takes the same turn as the WWII thread, I will inject the human side of this particular day.

Able Seaman Frederick Roy Fullick P/JX 152369, 20 years old was on this day killed when HMS Hood was sunk in the Denmark straits. He and 1,418 other men where lost. 3 survived. Frederick Fullick is one name in a list of a possible 62 million people that are thought to have perished during WWII. More information http://www.hmshood.com/

Matt

And who was Able Seaman Frederick Roy Fullick .............my uncle.

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Reply #5 - May 24^th, 2006 at 2:14pm

C Offline
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With less than three shots if I remember correctly!

Well, that's what can happen when you hit a magazine...

To be fair, the Bismarck was effectively sunk by one torpedo, delivered to her stern by on Sub Lt John Moffat. From that point on, hundreds of miles from the coast in permanent circles, she was doomed...

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Reply #6 - May 25^th, 2006 at 9:53pm

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Well, that's what can happen when you hit a magazine...

To be fair, the Bismarck was effectively sunk by one torpedo, delivered to her stern by on Sub Lt John Moffat. From that point on, hundreds of miles from the coast in permanent circles, she was doomed...

Hooray for the "Stringbags".and their crews.. unlikey giants in the history of tactical air power... Grin

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Reply #7 - May 29^th, 2006 at 11:59pm

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I recently aquired the old 1:600 scale Airfix kits of both these ships. Planning to later build tributes to both ships and their crews.

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Reply #8 - May 30^th, 2006 at 12:46am

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Well, that's what can happen when you hit a magazine..

I once hit a magazine with a ball bat -- I think I was five or six -- and paper went everywhere. That was the end of that. 8)
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I recently aquired the old 1:600 scale Airfix kits of both these ships. Planning to later build tributes to both ships and their crews.

Nice gesture. Will we get to see it?

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Reply #9 - May 30^th, 2006 at 6:08pm

Scorpiоn Offline
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Well, that's what can happen when you hit a magazine...

I believe Woody mentioned the HMS Hood's demise lay in the fact her deck had not been refitted yet, and was quite weak by the day's standards. Only this allowed the Bismarck's lucky shot to yield any result. Either that or the hull. I forget most things.

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I once hit a magazine with a ball bat -- I think I was five or six -- and paper went everywhere. That was the end of that. 8)

Have you ever recovered? Shocked

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Reply #10 - May 30^th, 2006 at 8:21pm

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Have you ever recovered? Shocked

The cover was torn in half, I was outside and the wind was blowing... how many pages did you think I was going to recover, to recover, with my short little 5-year-old or so legs? Roll Eyes

Whatever may be left of them nowadays wouldn't be worth the effort and, even as fast as my shin is healing, I couldn't presently collect them as well as I could have then. 8)

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Reply #11 - May 31^st, 2006 at 3:40pm

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Nice gesture. Will we get to see it?

If I get them finished in a reasonable time. I currently have too many projects going on.

P.S.- (For the board's old-timers) I draw F4U Corsairs and trucks quicker than I build them. Wink

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Reply #12 - Jun 2^nd, 2006 at 7:06pm

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It wasn't three shells. At the very least it was three salvo's which means a minimum of 24 shells only one of which hit the magazine. Also, who's to say it wasn't the Prinz Eugen didn't fire the fatal shot?

No one can really agree as to whether Bismarck was scuttled or the Dorsetshire sunk her with a torpedo attack. Both is probably the most likely answer.

My great uncle was a gunner on the Hood. Luckly for him he was on leave when she sailed that last time.

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Reply #13 - Jun 12^th, 2006 at 2:39pm

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You must not look at the Bismark sinking the Hood as a BB to BB engagement. The Hood, though the pride of the Royal Navy was not a traditional BB. The Hood was designed with firepower and speed in mind. She lacked the armor of a BB. She was more like a battlecruiser. Extra armor was added as a result of the lessons learned from Jutland, but it wasn't enough for Hood to be considered a BB.

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Reply #14 - Jun 12^th, 2006 at 3:37pm

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You must not look at the Bismark sinking the Hood as a BB to BB engagement. The Hood, though the pride of the Royal Navy was not a traditional BB. The Hood was designed with firepower and speed in mind. She lacked the armor of a BB. She was more like a battlecruiser. Extra armor was added as a result of the lessons learned from Jutland, but it wasn't enough for Hood to be considered a BB.

The Hood wasn't just like a Battlecruiser. She was a Battlecruiser though and through. I believe that at the outbreak of WWII the Royal navy only had two, Hood and Repulse. Both were sunk by 1942. True Hood had extra armour added. But this was not as a result of Jutland as the Hood was launched in 1918, two years after the battle. The armour was added in the 1920's when it was realised that the day of the Battlecruiser was over and that the most likely enemy would be a standard Battleship. Speed however remained her best defence against such odds though.

However, the engagement between Hood and Bismarck can be seen as a battleship vs battleship engagement. Never forget that the Prince of Wales was also present and she was a Battleship. There was also Prinz Eugen, a heavy cruiser.

Edit: Also, the losses at Jutland were due to improper use of the Battlecruiser fleet. The Battlecruiser was designed for armed reconissance and was built to out run anything that it couldn't out gun. Therefore using a Battlecruiser as a Battleship and pitting it against a Battleship was a folly. It was just unfortunate that at Jutland the Battlecruiser squadron found the German fleet first.

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Reply #15 - Jun 12^th, 2006 at 3:46pm

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Unless there's a really lucky shot at some unprotected vulnerable part, sinking a BB is the result of overwhelming the BB with many shots. My opinion is the Hood sunk as a result of a lucky shot and the Bismark was, in more traditional manner, overwhelmed to the point of her demise. But then again, given the Hood's lack of armor, I believe she could never survive a slugfest with Bismark, so maybe it wasn't so much as luck after all. Regardless of Hood's speed, a good firing solution is good if the target is fast moving or slow moving. It just doesn't matter.

BTW, I'm too lazy to google for the facts, but whether she took a torpedo or was scuttled, it doesn't matter. No captain will scuttler his ship unless he's left with no other alternatives. So, it doesn't matter, the Royal Navy sunk Bismark, regardless of who fired the last shot.

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Reply #16 - Jun 12^th, 2006 at 3:53pm

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One on one the Hood wouldn't have stood a chance against Bismarck. How ever the presence of the Prince of Wales did actually tip the odds in the British's favour. The shot that hit the Hoods magazine was unfortunate as it wouldn't have happened in the Hood hadn't made a turn so as to get her aft guns into use. If she had remained on course and closed the gap sufficiantly to eliminate the high plunging fire that eventually went through the deck and into the magazine then the whole thing may have ended differently.

Woodlouse2002 PITA and BAR!!!!!!!!&&&&Our Sovereign Lord the King chargeth and commandeth all persons, being assembled, immediately to disperse themselves, and peaceably to depart to their habitations, or to their lawful business, upon the pains contained in the Act made in the first year of King George the First for preventing tumults and riotous assemblies. God Save the King.&&&&Viva la revolution!

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Reply #17 - Jun 12^th, 2006 at 3:53pm

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True Hood had extra armour added. But this was not as a result of Jutland as the Hood was launched in 1918, two years after the battle.

Perhaps this site is in error, but that's what it stated:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Hood_%2851%29

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However, the engagement between Hood and Bismarck can be seen as a battleship vs battleship engagement.

That may be so, but as you stated above, it was in fact, a battlecruiser vs battleship engagement.

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Never forget that the Prince of Wales was also present and she was a Battleship.

The Prince of Wales wasn't sunk, Hood was.

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Reply #18 - Jun 12^th, 2006 at 4:01pm

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I don't think the site is as accurate as it could be. Every other source I've read has refered to Hood as a true Battlecruiser. Even with the extra armour, speed was still going to be her most effective weapon.

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Quote:

However, the engagement between Hood and Bismarck can be seen as a battleship vs battleship engagement.

That may be so, but as you stated above, it was in fact, a battlecruiser vs battleship engagement.

Except for the Prince of Wales, which was a battleship and took part in the engagement.

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The Prince of Wales wasn't sunk, Hood was.

And?

Woodlouse2002 PITA and BAR!!!!!!!!&&&&Our Sovereign Lord the King chargeth and commandeth all persons, being assembled, immediately to disperse themselves, and peaceably to depart to their habitations, or to their lawful business, upon the pains contained in the Act made in the first year of King George the First for preventing tumults and riotous assemblies. God Save the King.&&&&Viva la revolution!

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Reply #19 - Jun 12^th, 2006 at 4:03pm

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Perhaps, but positioning your ship so you can allow all your mounts to engage the enemy is a fairly standard consideration in naval gunnery, so you can't dismiss Hood's demise to that manuver like that. It's just one of those things in warfare, the element of chance is always present.

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Reply #20 - Jun 12^th, 2006 at 4:06pm

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And?

My point is the Hood was outclassed by Bismark. The Presence of Prince of Wales does not change that. Now, if Prince of Wales could have drawn Bismark's attention to her being that she could take more punishment than Hood, that would be something that could have spared Hood.

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Reply #21 - Jun 12^th, 2006 at 4:34pm

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Perhaps, but positioning your ship so you can allow all your mounts to engage the enemy is a fairly standard consideration in naval gunnery, so you can't dismiss Hood's demise to that manuver like that. It's just one of those things in warfare, the element of chance is always present.

Yes. But when you know that you have relatively unarmoured decks and at great range any incoming fire will be coming in at a steep angle and therefore most likely to hit the decks then you have to revise your tactics so that you get in close enough to eliminate most of the risk from plunging fire before turning to bear your rear guns.

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My point is the Hood was outclassed by Bismark. The Presence of Prince of Wales does not change that. Now, if Prince of Wales could have drawn Bismark's attention to her being that she could take more punishment than Hood, that would be something that could have spared Hood.

If the Hood wasn't outclassed by Bismarck then the Prince of Wales wouldn't have been there. She was a brand new ship and there were two cruisers, Suffolk and Norfolk, shadowing Bismark that could have taken on the Prinz Eugen should the Hood have been capable of tackling Bismarck alone.

Once Bismarck had decided to concentrate her fire on Hood, there was little Prince of Wales could have done to draw her fire.

Woodlouse2002 PITA and BAR!!!!!!!!&&&&Our Sovereign Lord the King chargeth and commandeth all persons, being assembled, immediately to disperse themselves, and peaceably to depart to their habitations, or to their lawful business, upon the pains contained in the Act made in the first year of King George the First for preventing tumults and riotous assemblies. God Save the King.&&&&Viva la revolution!

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Reply #22 - Jun 12^th, 2006 at 5:27pm

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...the shells were flying fast (or, in this case, maybe, past). Sorry, you two have that line (from the song The Sinking of the Bismark) reverberating in my mind. Grin

Um, which of you is which ship? 8)

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Reply #23 - Jun 12^th, 2006 at 9:02pm

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Interesting that the Hood's fate had been suffered by the HMS Good Hope at the hands of the Gneisenau almost 27 years earlier....

Felix/FFDS

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Reply #24 - Jun 13^th, 2006 at 8:57am

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I met one of the Navigator/Wireless operators who flew on the Bismarck Mission.

He was shot down by an HMS, I am unsure of which one but it was possibly Nofolk.

I have never heared of the scuttling of the Bismarck before, but then the truth is that I have never read that much about it.

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Reply #25 - Jun 13^th, 2006 at 11:36am

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I have never heared of the scuttling of the Bismarck before, but then the truth is that I have never read that much about it.

Neither have I. I know the Graf Spee was scuttled off Montevideo. That's it for me.

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Reply #26 - Jun 13^th, 2006 at 1:54pm

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I met one of the Navigator/Wireless operators who flew on the Bismarck Mission.

He was shot down by an HMS, I am unsure of which one but it was possibly Nofolk.

I have never heared of the scuttling of the Bismarck before, but then the truth is that I have never read that much about it.

More likely Sheffield. She was attacked by Swordfish from the Ark Royal who misidentified her has Bismarck (They were on the look out of a single warship and didn't know that Sheffield was also alone). Fortuately for Sheffield the Magnetic detonators in the torpedo's were faulty which ment most blew up on contact with the water. The couple that didn't missed.

As for the scuttling of the Bismarck, I believe some of the survivors claimed she was scuttled. But by that time she was little more than a burning hulk so if she was then it only saved the Royal Navy some ammunition.

Woodlouse2002 PITA and BAR!!!!!!!!&&&&Our Sovereign Lord the King chargeth and commandeth all persons, being assembled, immediately to disperse themselves, and peaceably to depart to their habitations, or to their lawful business, upon the pains contained in the Act made in the first year of King George the First for preventing tumults and riotous assemblies. God Save the King.&&&&Viva la revolution!

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Reply #27 - Jun 13^th, 2006 at 5:15pm

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The US Navy learned after alot of pain and beaurocratic stonewalling that magnetic detonators were no good. You design and test them at one latitude on the earth, not considering the magnetic field varies from latitude to latitude. So what works at Groton Conneticuit fails off Borneo.

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Reply #28 - Jul 6^th, 2006 at 8:53pm

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No captain will scuttler his ship unless he's left with no other alternatives.

Kpt.z.S. Hans Langsdorf Master of the Panzerschiffe Admiral Graf Spee scuttles that theory if you pardon the pun.

Imo (I've studied the battle of the river plate in detail over the years) Graff Spee could have carried on fighting during the battle itself or, equally, evaded its british persuers and returned to Germany.

For reasons we'll probably never truly know, Langsdorf decided to scuttle Spee without a further fight.

Again, imo, I believe he was'nt a true Nazi and did'nt desire to continue the fight with the british, a people whom he greatly respected.

Posting drivel here since Jan 31st, 2002. - That long!

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Reply #29 - Jul 7^th, 2006 at 6:10am

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Again, imo, I believe he was'nt a true Nazi and did'nt desire to continue the fight with the british, a people whom he greatly respected.

Langsdorf was a Captain of the old school and I believe that he didn't want to risk his crew in another round with the British. True he could have slipped out unseen by the british, the Plate estury is 100 miles wide and none of the vessels had Radar.

Whats more, during his 72 hours in Montevideo there were so many rumours of a British task force gathering outside the mouth of the river that no one really knew just what was waiting for him. As far as Langsdorf knew it could have just been Ajax and Achilliies, (in truth Cumberland had arrived from South Georgia and had taken over from Exeter) or the Graf Spee could have steamed out straight into Hood and Ark Royal

Woodlouse2002 PITA and BAR!!!!!!!!&&&&Our Sovereign Lord the King chargeth and commandeth all persons, being assembled, immediately to disperse themselves, and peaceably to depart to their habitations, or to their lawful business, upon the pains contained in the Act made in the first year of King George the First for preventing tumults and riotous assemblies. God Save the King.&&&&Viva la revolution!

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Reply #30 - Jul 7^th, 2006 at 11:09am

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I tend to edge towards Scania on this Woody (as a possibility, not necessarily a probability); your information even points to it. Even had he "steamed out straight into Hood and Ark Royal," he would yet have had the expectancy of having time to safely ( Grin

) scuttle.

8)

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Reply #31 - Jul 7^th, 2006 at 12:12pm

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Again, imo, I believe he was'nt a true Nazi and did'nt desire to continue the fight with the british, a people whom he greatly respected.

Lots of professional military men who weren't Nazi believers fought, not for National Socializm, but for their country.

I haven't studied these events in such detail as you, but what I have read tends to be the account Woodlouse stated. Hindsight is 20/20, but at the time, I belive Langsdorf was led to believe a British task force was en route to deal with the Graf Spee.

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Reply #32 - Jul 18^th, 2006 at 1:22pm

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The Bismarck was eventually sunk by a Swordfish formation. The Swordfish were carrying torpedos; it is thought that a lucky shot disabled the rudder, leaving the Bismarck virtually immobile. Other British ships went for the kill.

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