I've only just been directed to this site, but having browsed it for ten minutes or so, I'd be prepared to call it a masterpiece of historical data collection, which has taken over 10 years...

http://www.lostbombers.co.uk/

A database of RAF bombers lost during WWII, with search functions etc.

To give an idea, there a 20 losses linked on each page...

...there are 207 pages covering the Avro Lancaster, 120 on the Halifax and 85 on the Stirling alone...

Shocking when you see it laid out in front of you...

That would be unpatriotic.

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Dont remember any british city being destroyed like the german ones, especially dresden, hamburg and nürnberg.
The goal of the british and americans (after the war criminal harris took power in the air force) was not retaliation, but to kill as many german civilians as possible, in order to weaken the fighting front this way. 

Nowadays, we would call such proceeding "Terrorism".

Hard to tell, but some say up to 2.000.000 german civilians were killed until 1945.
For me, thats the same thing as the holocaust - the planned and industrialized elimination of one kind. Seeing a site like the one above therefore makes me a bit mad I must confess. Its like worshipping the gas chambers.

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Well thats right. But how comes only the germans were blamed in Nürnberg and are STILL blamed to this day? How comes my country is still ONLY associated with the bad sides of national sozialism? How comes Stalin, the worst dictator of all times, is still treated like a hero in Russia? and many many many more things that really make me sick.

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Ask a resident of Coventry...

Read up on the seige of Malta and tell me THAT wasn't an attempt to sink the island!
More bombs landed on Malta every 2 months than in the entire first year of the Blitz!
Glass houses and stones, remember

I agree completely myshelf. Alas a lot of modern historians are trying to impose their values on history and turning things around until nothing makes sense.
Having seen what war can do and now living in a former Eastern Bloc country I have to say I've reached one great conclusion. Shoot ALL the politicians and religious extremists and the rest of us could get on really well without any serious trouble whatsoever! And the terrible thing is that that is THE truth

Worth repeating!


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i wonder what history books would say about stalin if wouldn't have been forced to fight against germany?

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No thanks. People have tried to escalate such a discussion before...

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Well, he was almost certainly responsible for more deaths.

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if the airforce's bombing of major cities ended the war, how do you explain the army campains?

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I don't know if your family were in the area you live now Will during the war, but if they were, then that is another example of the indescriminate use of the V weapons - weapons that were even given a specific target, just pointed in the general direction of the civilian population of London. At least with bombers there was a chance of an air raid warning. With the V2, you never even knew it was coming. As a local aside, the first V1 "Doodlebug" landed in Swanscombe.

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The Luftwaffe also managed to bomb the geography classrooms of my school on the way back from London in 1940 or 41...

So I take it that Hitler's invasion of Poland in 1939 and his targeting of cities and civilians during that campaign doesn't count?

Or his invasion of Russia and almost total destruction of Staligrad, again targeting civilians?

Or his population purges?

If you want to talk history and historical facts then do so  without a predijuced slant. Stalin probably was as bad as Hitler but Stalin didn't start WW2.


Keep arguing the way you are and this thread will get locked.

There were heros on all sides of that conflict. Each country has chosen to remember them in their own way, from the Arizona memorial, the tank crosses outside Stalingrad,  to the many museuems that are dedicated to remembering WW2.

It is not our place to debate right or wrong as we can not apply todays standards to a conflict that happened over 60 years ago. Attitudes and technologies were different then and we must remember that when we delve into history.

That said I must, again, thank all allied veterans that fought in WW2. I thank them for the freedoms I enjoy today and honor their sacrifces made to keep those freedoms alive.

And that is what started this thread, honoring Bomber command pilots that never made it home. To them and their families we owe a debt of gratitude we can never repay.

Funny how we always try to attach modern day values to things that took place decades ago as if it will make the slightest bit of difference.

I am English, I lost 3 Uncles, one on a fishery vessel strafed in the Channel and two on HMS Hood.
My wife is German, she lost one grandfather and one uncle. When we married, the remaining grandfather became my Opa too. I was treated like to 5 grandchildren until his death last week. Move on people, there are just too many if's in life and getting hot under the collar is not going to get any ware, except the thread locked maybe.

Charlie, great website, shame about the rest.

Matt

PS, Just out of interest Opa was an armourer on JU52's in the war and saw service for the Russian Front to Crete and he hated Hitler!

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i'd rather lament the lack of respect for human life.

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I think that, aside from the babbling of the ignorant, that you'll find less of that attitude outside Germany than within. Had Hitler not risen to the heights he attained, America would probably have eventually found itself at war in that decade with Japan and /or the Soviets anyway... it's pretty obvious. The stage was set, the spotlight was waiting, and Hitler characteristically moved to the center to get all the attention, dragging Germany with him.

But the Allies were fighting on two fronts half a world apart, having been caught with their pants down by two nations to be reckoned with when agitated: Germany and Japan. There was never any assurance of victory on the front lines throughout that conflict, as we were woefully unprepared (especially the US). What the Russians did on the ground on their western border and in Europe was miraculous, all things considered; America and GB could hardly hope to do the same, so the doctrine of "total war" was applied as regards air power. Hiroshima and Nagasaki were the ultimate expression of that (although the prior bombing of Japanese and German cities produced much more suffering and destruction in total)- call it terrorism if you want, but the alternative (assuming peace could not be achieved) would have been much worse for both sides, I think. And let's not forget that the Axis was doing their utmost to do the same, especially Germany. If the Luftwaffe had the capability to strike civilian targets in the US before, say,  Dresden, what do you think Hitler would have done? And if Roosevelt  had hesitated after Pearl Harbor, instead of immediately stretching to the absolute limit to strike Tokyo, do you suppose Tojo would have simply withdrawn his navy to concentrate on securing the Pacific for Japan, or might he have pressed farther?
   Maybe at the end the German and Japanese people became casualties of a preliminary power struggle between America and Russia (the less of Europe left standing for Soviet occupation, the better, as far as the western allies were concerned... and then there was Truman's alleged comment about intimidating Stalin with actual deployment of atomic weapons against Japan), but the bottom line is that Germany under Hitler and Japan under Tojo scared the hell out of the rest of the industrialized world and we were getting our asses kicked  at greater and greater expense every time we coinfronted them, so drastic measures were taken.

It's unfortunate that so much talent and love of country made all of that a reality, but some of us respect the resolve, inventiveness, and courage of the German and Japanese people at that time (and since that time) nonetheless. Those who obeyed their masters, and those who defied them (and we so rarely hear about them!)... they all deserve our respect.