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AOA stability of fixed and rotary wings (Read 825 times)
Apr 3rd, 2006 at 7:08am

chornedsnorkack   Offline
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Do rotary wing craft have the stability to preserve their angle of attack?

Consider what happens to a plane that flies level and steady, then loses thrust. It continues to have drag, so the airspeed decreases. Decrease in the square of airspeed at constant angle of attack causes decrease of lift, so the craft accelerates downwards. Once the craft begins to descend, the angle of attack is no longer equal to the angle of attitude - it increases and causes increase of lift.

However, the plane has a horizontal stabilizer - tailplane or canards. This reacts to changes of angle of attack by creating a torque changing the pitch angle of attitude. The craft would drop nose - and the lift would acquire a forward component until the forward component of lift equals the drag. By the operation of the horizontal stabilizers, the plane would transition from level flight to descent while the trimmed angle of attack and speed of the craft would remain unchanged - though the transition would also excite the phugoid oscillations in pitch.

Now consider a rotary wing losing thrust!

The wing would slow by drag... square of airspeed would decrease... the craft would accelerate downwards... the angle of attack would increase above the angle of attitude...

But is there any stabilizer or feedback capable of changing the angle of attitude of a rotary wing in response to changes of the angle of attack?
 
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Reply #1 - Apr 3rd, 2006 at 9:31am

Brett_Henderson   Offline
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I think you're comparing apples and oranges. Kinda like the cyclic/collective controls are "similar" to a variable-pitch prop, but are actually, completely different, in flight.

The lifting surface (wing) on a fixed-wing craft relies on aerodynamic thrust to maintain an angle AoA.

The AoA of the lifting surface (rotor blade), or for that matter,  the fact that it's moving through the air at all.. (aside from inertia, after the fact)  is a function of  the mechanical energy provided by the engine(s).

Simple helicopters used displaced lift as "thrust".. where fixed wing aircraft use thrust, causing the wing create the lift. It's kinda backwards.

You can instantly and dramatically alter the attitude of a rotor blade without first having to revector the entire aircraft.

There are helicopters with control surface/stabilzers AND helicopers that get thrust from other than displaced lift, but for the sake of this discussion.. they'd be a "hybrid".. confusing the issue..

 
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Reply #2 - Apr 3rd, 2006 at 10:09am

chornedsnorkack   Offline
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Quote:
The lifting surface (wing) on a fixed-wing craft relies on aerodynamic thrust to maintain an angle AoA.

But my point is, actually it does NOT rely on thrust. The angle AoA is maintained by the horizontal stabilizer irrespective of whether there is any thrust. If the thrust vanishes, the horizontal stabilizer ensures the plane will continue to fly at unchanged angle of attack and airspeed, dropping its nose and entering into a steady descent.
Quote:
The AoA of the lifting surface (rotor blade), or for that matter,  the fact that it's moving through the air at all.. (aside from inertia, after the fact)  is a function of  the mechanical energy provided by the engine(s).



So, if and when the engine/s stop providing mechanical energy, the rotor blades will slow down, suffer increase of AoA and stall, with no stability which would allow the blades to accelerate from the energy of airflow/descent of the copter?
 
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Reply #3 - Apr 3rd, 2006 at 10:46am

Brett_Henderson   Offline
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Quote:
So, if and when the engine/s stop providing mechanical energy, the rotor blades will slow down, suffer increase of AoA and stall, with no stability which would allow the blades to accelerate from the energy of airflow/descent of the copter?


Sort of.. yeah.. I see your point. I'm gonna call my cousin (5,000 hour Bell206 pilot) and ask him about engine failure / auto-rotation procedure. I suppose if the collective mechanism allows for "leading edge down" attitude of the rotor blade.. that would be like nosing down to reduce AoA and gain airspeed. But even pondering that points out the difference. If you can do that we'd have to equate airplane airspeed to helicopter rotor rpm... and again.. you can't alter the attitude of a fixed wing without redirecting the mass of the whole craft.

Think about the engine failure scenario. Altitudes being equal.. airpeed is your friend in a airplane and your enemy in a helicoter. Airspeed in a helicopter comes at the expense of lift and in a airplane you have lift because of airspeed.

Edit:  Just talked to my cousin..  he explained "dead man's curve"  to me and how airspeed does indeed store kinetic energy in the rotor.. even though the speed came at the expense of lift.

Re-Edit:  Gyroscopic precession.. transverse flow-dynamics and retarding blade stall effects.. are things he's "trying" to explain to me..  My head hurts  Tongue
« Last Edit: Apr 3rd, 2006 at 9:24pm by Brett_Henderson »  
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Reply #4 - Apr 7th, 2006 at 10:19am

yaarpanjabi   Offline
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Hi guys,

With the helicopters, thats why to autorotate, you only have a couple of seconds before the angle of attack reaches the stalling angle at which point, you will lose stability and pretty much drop out of the sky. When an engine on the helicopter fails, the rotors keep spinning at the same AoA.

The chopper starts to descend and therefore increases AoA on the rotors. Now, if you can get the thing to autorotate, you basically twist the "wing" (rotor) so that the angle of attack is such that it can sustain rotation and therefore gives you the ability to cushion your landing.

In other words, say that the rotor is a wing of a fixed wing aircraft, you're essentially twisting the wing forward, so that you get the same effect as to if you had an elevator pushing the nose down. You want the rotors to keep cutting through the air at a very low angle of attack (it may well be negative) so that the "dropping" of the helicopter is powering the rotors themselves. When you get close to the ground, you use that momentum and convert the low AoA to a higher AoA and decrese your descent rate and then touchdown while still moving forward.

Please note, I am not a helicopter expert but the above statement is what I can logically think of. I stand to be corrected.

Cheers.
 

...
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Reply #5 - Apr 7th, 2006 at 12:07pm

Brett_Henderson   Offline
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...You're pretty close.. But it's mechanically impossible to get a "leading edge down" attitude for a rotor blade (realtive to the body of the helicopter).. The blades are prevented, mechanically, from pitching that far negative..That's why airspeed is indeed important so you can maintain a nose-down attitude for the chopper itself.

The way it was explained to me... Each blade goes from negative to positive AoA for every revolution. As long as you are nose down and descending.. you get the "effect" of a diving airplane for enough of that cycle to maintain enough rotor RPM to pull the collective.. making all blades go WAY positive (AoA).. just before "flaring".. using up all that energy as to not hit the ground too hard.

Now.. this all for a Bell206.. I don't know about other helicopters.
 
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Reply #6 - Apr 10th, 2006 at 4:55am

chornedsnorkack   Offline
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Quote:
...You're pretty close.. But it's mechanically impossible to get a "leading edge down" attitude for a rotor blade (realtive to the body of the helicopter).. The blades are prevented, mechanically, from pitching that far negative..That's why airspeed is indeed important so you can maintain a nose-down attitude for the chopper itself.

The way it was explained to me... Each blade goes from negative to positive AoA for every revolution. As long as you are nose down and descending.. you get the "effect" of a diving airplane for enough of that cycle to maintain enough rotor RPM to pull the collective..

But what happens if the helicopter has no airspeed to begin with? That is, the helicopter is hovering (out of ground effect... plenty of height to fall from)... all blades are facing steady airflow and have constant, positive AoA. Now, when the engine quits, what would be the next thing to do before the blades stall?
 
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Reply #7 - Apr 10th, 2006 at 7:10am

Brett_Henderson   Offline
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Quote:
But what happens if the helicopter has no airspeed to begin with? That is, the helicopter is hovering (out of ground effect... plenty of height to fall from)... all blades are facing steady airflow and have constant, positive AoA. Now, when the engine quits, what would be the next thing to do before the blades stall?  




That's where "Dead Man's Curve" comes into play. If I remember correctly.. it's:  300agl and 60kias

A 206 can easily auto-rotate from that point. Any lower than 300agl and it would need more airspeed. Any slower than 60kias and it would need more altitude.

SO.. if you're hovering (or have less 60kias)  below 300agl; you're in trouble if the engine quits.

With enough altitude.. you could nose over and gain that 60kias (hopefully before reaching 300agl).
 
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Reply #8 - Apr 10th, 2006 at 7:34am

chornedsnorkack   Offline
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So:

a fixed-wing plane is close to a gliding attitude anyway with power, so in principle, it can transition from powered cruise to glide by itself

a helicopter is unable to transition to autorotation without quick pilot reaction, and it is physically prevented from autorotating in hover/vertical descent.

What about autogyros/gyroplanes? They are autorotating in cruise all the time... are they liable to get into trouble when an engine quits?

Then again, a rotary wing is said to be inefficient, so that a glide ratio of autogyro is poor compared to a, aeroplane. What is the range of the glide ratio of an autorotating helicopter?
 
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Reply #9 - Apr 10th, 2006 at 10:36am

Brett_Henderson   Offline
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Quote:
a fixed-wing plane is close to a gliding attitude anyway with power, so in principle, it can transition from powered cruise to glide by itself


I'd say that's a good way to put it. Level flight is pretty much a glide, with enough thrust to keep the airspeed/lift equal to gravity.

Quote:
a helicopter is unable to transition to autorotation without quick pilot reaction, and it is physically prevented from autorotating in hover/vertical descent.


Tthat's the way it was explained to me, by someone who flies them every day.

Quote:
What about autogyros/gyroplanes? They are autorotating in cruise all the time... are they liable to get into trouble when an engine quits?

Then again, a rotary wing is said to be inefficient, so that a glide ratio of autogyro is poor compared to a, aeroplane. What is the range of the glide ratio of an autorotating helicopter?  


A rotary wing spends half of it's life going in the wrong direction and obviously (on a gyroplane) is that much closer to stalling. The return on that is of course.. much slower sustainable flight (gyroplane) or hovering (helicoter).

As far as I know.. there's no controling the pitch (independent of the aircraft body) on a gyroplane's "wing".. and since you'd never be hovering in one anyway.. engine-out would just be like that of an inefficient winged plane that has the luxury of landing (even engine out) in a very short distance.

I'll ask specifically about the glide-ratio re: Bell206..
 
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