Simviation Forum - WWII Battleship Comparisons

Feb 10^th, 2006 at 12:23pm

dcunning30 Offline
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I revisited the site www.combinedfleet.com. ; It's an excellent site. After revisiting the battleship comparison page, I thought it would be of interest here:

http://www.combinedfleet.com/baddest.htm

.....let the debates begin! Wink

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Reply #1 - Feb 10^th, 2006 at 11:31pm

Felix/FFDS Offline
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Actually, reviewing his methodology and data, I tend to agree.

A potential ship to ship between the Yamato and the Iowa could have gone either way.

Like the fellow implies, just because the raw numbers come out one way, doesn't mean the fight follows.

NIce site find.!

Felix/FFDS

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Reply #2 - Feb 11^th, 2006 at 6:18am

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Quote:

Actually, reviewing his methodology and data, I tend to agree.

A potential ship to ship between the Yamato and the Iowa could have gone either way.

Like the fellow implies, just because the raw numbers come out one way, doesn't mean the fight follows.

NIce site find.!

The Battle of the River Plate being a classic case in point.

Posting drivel here since Jan 31st, 2002. - That long!

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Reply #3 - Feb 13^th, 2006 at 10:34am

dcunning30 Offline
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Felix/FFDS

I've been visiting his site for well over 5-6 years. John Parshall has become an authority on the IJN. As you might have seen, he served as consultant to identify the wreckage of the IJN Kaga, plus I've read a couple of books that list his website in their bibliography.

What is truly amazing, yet is easily overlooked by the casual viewer is his Tabulature Records of Movement (TROMs). His site has compiled the actual histories of hundereds of ships. His site originally compiled TROMs of combattants several years ago, starting with the carriers. But now, he's compiling TROMs of merchant vessels. It's absolutely amazing that he's getting this info. This means analyzing Japanese documentation which obviously resides in Japan. Also, consider how they Japanese did a much more thorough job of destroying documentation than the Germans.

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Reply #4 - Feb 13^th, 2006 at 10:47am

dcunning30 Offline
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Plus the out-of-scope consideration that has much to do with which will win is the human factor. Do each ship have experienced and competent skipper? How's the training and experience of the crew, and the fatigue factor also plays in.

Case in point: Second Naval Battle of Guadalcanal. The US sent in two BB's, the Washington and the South Dakoda along with 4 DD's to go against the Japanese bombardment force to bombard Henderson field which included Kirishima with various CA's, CL's and a bunch of DD's. The South Dakoda's electrical power went out shortly afetr the battle began, but the Washington prevailed. The point I want to make is even though it was an American victory, it was barely. Washington had radar, but they didn't trust the new technology. That resulted in the Americans taking more damage than they would have if they trusted the radar.

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Reply #5 - Feb 13^th, 2006 at 11:14am

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From a historical standpoint, it's amazing (to the aerocentric history dilettante) how much of the world's history has churned around control of the seas, and the predominance of the "ships of the line" and battleships, even if actual significant moments did not involve battleships!

My "seapower" mindset has been influenced by the two books, "Dreadnought" and "Castles of Steel", which I consider must reads for anyone interested in the pre-WW1 arms race leading up to the actual fighting (Dreadnought) and an overview of WW1 as it played out at sea.

Felix/FFDS

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Reply #6 - Feb 13^th, 2006 at 11:39am

dcunning30 Offline
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Let me clarify the radar that I mentioned. There's several types of radar. There's surface search radar, fire control radar, and air search radar. The radar that I was speaking of is fire control radar. Previously, obtaining a firing solution was accomplished by optical rangefinders. In a night battle, a fire control radar trump optical rangefinders anyday. And besides, in 1942, the Japanese were arguably the best naval night fighters in the business.

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Reply #7 - Feb 13^th, 2006 at 11:45am

dcunning30 Offline
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Felix/FFDS

This i show I kinda see it:

The battle between the Monitor and the Merrimack rendered all the world's navies obsolescent.

The Dreadnaught also rendered the world's navies obsolescent.

The emergence of the carrier in WWII rendered the battleship obsolescent.

Since WWII, I don't think you'll ever see another large scale naval battle. Navies are very expensive, and only rich nations can afford them.

BTW, I'm not advocating that navies are obsolescent.

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Reply #8 - Feb 13^th, 2006 at 12:11pm

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Adding to your comments:

Quote:

Felix/FFDS

This i show I kinda see it:

The battle between the Monitor and the Merrimack rendered all the world's navies obsolescent.

While the first "ironclad ship of the line" was the French "La Gloire", and there were already several ironclads (used in the Crimean War as bombardment ships), the battle between the USS Monitor and the CSS Virginia definitely pointed out that all-wood ships were passé.

Quote:

The Dreadnaught also rendered the world's navies obsolescent.

Dreadnought was the first "all big guns" battleship, discarding the secondary armament generally being carried in side turrets and casemates. Dreadnought's design, (btw 1905) was confirmed by the Battle of Tsushima Straights in which the Japanese defeated the Russians. Admittedly the Japanese were better trained and armed, but one of the key features was the accurate, long range firing of the Japanese big guns.

Accurate long range firepower was to be the hallmark of the Dreadnought era combatants

Quote:

The emergence of the carrier in WWII rendered the battleship obsolescent.

Since WWII, I don't think you'll ever see another large scale naval battle. Navies are very expensive, and only rich nations can afford them.

BTW, I'm not advocating that navies are obsolescent.

Felix/FFDS

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Reply #9 - Feb 13^th, 2006 at 2:59pm

dcunning30 Offline
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Also, the Japanese made effective use of torpedo carrying destroyers. They played a fairly vital role, as well as the fatigue factor. The Russian Baltic Fleet sailed all the way around the cape of Africa up to the Tsushima straits, which were effectively Japanese backwaters in comparison.

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Reply #10 - Mar 18^th, 2006 at 2:03pm

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I thought HMS Warrior was the first all metal ship of the line. Wooden war ships really became obsolete with the invention of the explosive shell in the 19th century. After that really it was only a matter of time before ships were made entirely out of iron.

Also the Battle of Tsushima straits isn't a good case study for warship design but for training and tactics. The Japanise had been trained by the Royal Navy and as the Royal Navy had ruled the sea for the previous 100 years it is fair to say that they were the best.

The Russians on the other hand barely knew how to control their own ships and on their way to Tsushima they actually managed to attack the Hull fishing fleet in the North Sea thinking that they were Japanise torpedo boats.

http://www.hullwebs.co.uk/content/l-20c/disaster/dogger-bank/voyage-of-dammed.ht...

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Reply #11 - Mar 18^th, 2006 at 3:48pm

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Quote:

I thought HMS Warrior was the first all metal ship of the line.

I would agree with you on Warrior - as being the first iron-hulled (metal frames/metal armour) ship of the line. La Gloire caused a shock as being the first ship of the line to be ironclad (iron armour over wooden hull).

HMS Warrior, going in service about a year after La Gloire, basically made La Gloire obsolete.

Felix/FFDS

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Reply #12 - Mar 28^th, 2006 at 2:32pm

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Yamashiro in her glory!

More Glory!

Yamashiro in trouble.

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Reply #13 - Mar 28^th, 2006 at 4:56pm

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Having looked at this chaps site I must say that I think he is a little biased as regards the Iowa class and ignores HMS Rodney/Nelson in his battleship contest.

All the same tis an interesting site.

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Reply #14 - Mar 28^th, 2006 at 5:22pm

dcunning30 Offline
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Quote:

Having looked at this chaps site I must say that I think he is a little biased as regards the Iowa class and ignores HMS Rodney/Nelson in his battleship contest.

All the same tis an interesting site.

Reasonable question. Shoot Parshall an email. He's good at responding. I wouldn't think the omission was due to bias, but his response would be interesting. But be forwarned. I once challenged him in a discussion about the battle of Midway, thinking I knew a few things about the battle, and he schooled me pretty thoroughly. He knows his stuff.

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Reply #15 - Mar 28^th, 2006 at 5:55pm

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Quote:

Reasonable question. Shoot Parshall an email. He's good at responding. I wouldn't think the omission was due to bias, but his response would be interesting. But be forwarned. I once challenged him in a discussion about the battle of Midway, thinking I knew a few things about the battle, and he schooled me pretty thoroughly. He knows his stuff.

I probably would if I had the time for an email discussion and if my battleship knowledge wasn't quite so rusty. I'm afraid I've gone back in time a bit with my naval warfare to the Golden age of sail. The ships were better looking then.

Woodlouse2002 PITA and BAR!!!!!!!!&&&&Our Sovereign Lord the King chargeth and commandeth all persons, being assembled, immediately to disperse themselves, and peaceably to depart to their habitations, or to their lawful business, upon the pains contained in the Act made in the first year of King George the First for preventing tumults and riotous assemblies. God Save the King.&&&&Viva la revolution!

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Reply #16 - Mar 29^th, 2006 at 12:21am

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I think he probably discounted Rodney and Nelson due to the limited arc of fire that class suffered in one turret.

In a true broadside battle it wouldn't matter...but if manuever is a factor (ain't it always?)...well that limitation could doom those ships by reducing their apparent rate of fire.

I always liked the look of those ships though...strange as they were.

Steve (Silver Fox) Daly

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Reply #17 - Mar 29^th, 2006 at 8:21am

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It is a pity that the Washinton Treaty came into effect as it did as I believe they would have been fantastic battleships if built as originally intended.

I don't see the restrictions to one of the turrets as an issue in his calculations as broadside metal is taken into account yet manueverbility is not.

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Reply #18 - Mar 29^th, 2006 at 10:36am

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I don't know much about the Nelson class BB, but the Japanese did a similar thing with their Mogami class heavy cruisers. (3 turrets forward ) What occurred with the Mogami class is firing a simultanious broadside had the unpleasant effect of popping welds. It could just be due to Japanese construction technique, I don't know. It was just a thought.

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Reply #19 - Mar 29^th, 2006 at 12:13pm

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Quote:

I don't know much about the Nelson class BB, but the Japanese did a similar thing with their Mogami class heavy cruisers. (3 turrets forward ) What occurred with the Mogami class is firing a simultanious broadside had the unpleasant effect of popping welds. It could just be due to Japanese construction technique, I don't know. It was just a thought.

I've heard of nothing like that with the Nelson class and it's not as if they were untried with HMS Rodney's part in the Bismarck campaign and her shore bombardment during D-Day and the following weeks.

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Reply #20 - Mar 29^th, 2006 at 1:03pm

dcunning30 Offline
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Yea, that makes sense. It's a cool looking ship, BTW.

Here's another cool-looking ship. It was a practical failure, but I like it anyway.

IJN Ryujo

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Reply #21 - Mar 29^th, 2006 at 1:11pm

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Notice the white line i added to the hull. The Ryujo had seaworthieness problems. So the Japanese added a higher freeboard that is depicted in the last picture. It used to be where the white line I added shows. If you follow the line aft, you'll see where the railing begins, and you can imagine what her lines used to look like. Ryujo was a mixed success and ended up being sunk in August 1942.

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Reply #22 - Mar 29^th, 2006 at 3:06pm

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Actually the Ryujo was built based on the recovered remains of the Titanic .....

Felix/FFDS

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Reply #23 - Mar 29^th, 2006 at 5:13pm

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IJN Nibai

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Reply #24 - Mar 30^th, 2006 at 10:33am

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Talk about martime failures. I submit to you the Russian Novgogod. She was designed to be round so that she could turn really well. And that she did. However, she couldn't sail in a straight line at all. She was a colossal failure.

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Reply #25 - Mar 30^th, 2006 at 10:56am

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I am quite well aquainted with the Novrogod and Admiral Popov. They were the topic of my most successful "guess the battleship". It should be noted that while used as actual ships they were about as much use as a chocolate thermometer, as coastal defence forts they served brilliantly. It should also be noted that the round shape was not to increase maueverbility but to provide as stable a firing platform as possible for the two centrally mounted guns.

http://www.battleships-cruisers.co.uk/

If, you like battleships, you'd have a hard time bettering the above site...

Woodlouse2002 PITA and BAR!!!!!!!!&&&&Our Sovereign Lord the King chargeth and commandeth all persons, being assembled, immediately to disperse themselves, and peaceably to depart to their habitations, or to their lawful business, upon the pains contained in the Act made in the first year of King George the First for preventing tumults and riotous assemblies. God Save the King.&&&&Viva la revolution!

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Reply #26 - Mar 30^th, 2006 at 11:15am

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Those Russian battle(?)ships were really the upper section of the german submarine posing as an iceberg.....

Felix/FFDS

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Reply #27 - Mar 30^th, 2006 at 11:50am

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Quote:

Those Russian battle(?)ships were really the upper section of the german submarine posing as an iceberg.....

Best post ever!

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Reply #28 - Apr 6^th, 2006 at 10:35am

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Best post ever!

[img]

And one of the better reply's Wink

Posting drivel here since Jan 31st, 2002. - That long!

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Reply #29 - Apr 14^th, 2006 at 1:21pm

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got a question here

what ship had the largest crew ever?

the reasonable man adjusts to his souroundings, while the unreasonable man insists on adjusting his souroundings to him.&&&&therefore all progress is due to the unreasonable man.

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Reply #30 - Apr 17^th, 2006 at 4:24pm

dcunning30 Offline
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My guess, thought I believe would be a safe guess would be a Nimitz Class Carrier.

USS Ronald Reagan

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Reply #31 - Apr 24^th, 2006 at 6:22am

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how many heads you're talking about?

the reasonable man adjusts to his souroundings, while the unreasonable man insists on adjusting his souroundings to him.&&&&therefore all progress is due to the unreasonable man.

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Reply #32 - Apr 24^th, 2006 at 5:01pm

dcunning30 Offline
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how many heads you're talking about?

Toilets?

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Reply #33 - Apr 24^th, 2006 at 8:36pm

myshelf Offline
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strike heads, insert faces

the reasonable man adjusts to his souroundings, while the unreasonable man insists on adjusting his souroundings to him.&&&&therefore all progress is due to the unreasonable man.

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Reply #34 - Apr 24^th, 2006 at 9:54pm

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She carries more than 5,500 sailors and over 80 aircraft.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Ronald_Reagan

The Devil's Advocate.&&

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