Simviation Forum - WWII True/False Quiz

Reply #15 - Jan 12^th, 2006 at 2:36am

H Offline
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OK. Now I've read the rest of the post. Some of my 'facts' are a bit off and I still question a couple things. There's a question as to whether it was the P51 that actually was 1st to shoot down a 262 (even if the 1st fighter to do so). Papa9571 corrects my "Apache" naming; I think he's older than I and was probably there Grin

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Reply #16 - Jan 12^th, 2006 at 3:55am

Hagar Offline
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Quote:

Actually Hagar you got it partially right.

The P-51 came into being when the British went to the US looking to buy P-40's in January 1940. The production lines were running full bore so the British couldn't get any. Instead they wer treated to a discussion fron North American who told them they could have a prototype ready in 120 days.

Two Mustang I aircraft were delivered with the Merlin engine. The british at the time however kept the Merlin for the Spit and others. It wasn't until they licensed the Merlin to the US, and Packard began building them, that the aircrafts true potential as a high altitude fighter became known.

I'm pretty sure of my facts on the history of the P-51. I have an issue of Aeroplane Monthly dedicated to it including articles by Lee Atwood who was the vice-president of North American Aviation at the time. No Mustang Is were delivered to the RAF with Merlin engines but two of the original Allison powered examples were delivered to the US Army for evaluation under the designation XP-51. This later became the A-36 Apache. It was Rolls-Royce chief test pilot Ronald Harker who suggested fitting a Merlin & the initial conversion & testing of five Mustang 1s was done in Britain. The first Merlin powered Mustang X (AL975) took to the air on October 12, 1942, piloted by Captain R. T. Shepherd & fitted with a Spitfire IX propeller. Meanwhile, North American had been informed of what was going on & started their own conversion programme with two repossesed Mustang 1As from the RAF contract & using imported Merlins. These were designated XP-51B & as manufacturers NA were responsible for the rest of the conversion work. At about the same time it was being arranged for Packard to build the Merlin under licence in the US. The rest, as they say, is history.

I think you will find most sources agree on this. I found this article that gives full details of the Merlin conversion, including the serial numbers of the converted aircraft. http://home.att.net/~jbaugher1/p51_8.html

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Reply #17 - Jan 12^th, 2006 at 4:30am

Papa9571 Offline
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H..

I am not that old..I just read a lot

And Hagar.. This is what was sent to the RAF as Mustang I

NA-83 Mustang Mk I: second run (300) for RAF with minor changes
One aircraft later fitted with twelve-cylinder Vee liquid-cooled Merlin 61,
Two fitted with twelve-cylinder Vee liquid-cooled Merlin 65 as “Mustang Mk X”
One armed with two 40-mm Vickers 'S' cannon
British experiments replacing stock Allison engine with Rolls Royce twelve-cylinder Vee liquid-cooled Merlin engines led to dramatic performance improvements, especially at high altitude & subsequent use in all future production P-51s

It was the second order that two merlin engined mustangs were delivered

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Reply #18 - Jan 12^th, 2006 at 4:51am

Hagar Offline
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Quote:

And Hagar.. This is what was sent to the RAF as Mustang I

NA-83 Mustang Mk I: second run (300) for RAF with minor changes
One aircraft later fitted with twelve-cylinder Vee liquid-cooled Merlin 61,
Two fitted with twelve-cylinder Vee liquid-cooled Merlin 65 as “Mustang Mk X”
One armed with two 40-mm Vickers 'S' cannon
British experiments replacing stock Allison engine with Rolls Royce twelve-cylinder Vee liquid-cooled Merlin engines led to dramatic performance improvements, especially at high altitude & subsequent use in all future production P-51s

It was the second order that two merlin engined mustangs were delivered

OK. I haven't seen that. I don't know the date of that second batch but they could have been the first of the NA conversions I mentioned.

H said: Quote:

There's a question as to whether it was the P51 that actually was 1st to shoot down a 262 (even if the 1st fighter to do so).

Debatable. Captain Chuck Yeager shot down an Me 262 while flying a P-51D on 6th November 1944. http://www.475thfghf.org/Friends/yeager.htm
According to this the first Allied aircraft to shoot down a Me 262 was a Tempest Mk V which is a propeller driven fighter. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messerschmitt_Me_262
According to this it was Spitfires of 401 Squadron RAF on 5th October 1944. http://www.mikekemble.com/ww2/spitfire.html
And according to this it was a pair of P-47s on 28th August 1944. http://www.vectorsite.net/avme262.html
Apparently there was no jet vs jet combat until the Korean war 1950-53.

Quote:

Papa9571 corrects my "Apache" naming; I think he's older than I and was probably there

The A-36 was also known as the Invader. "The official name for the A-36 was Apache but it never was widely used. Another was Invader, which did not have much more success: the aircraft was mostly known as the Mustang." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A-36_Apache

PS. I believe the P-51 was originally named Mustang by the RAF. Most US aircraft at the time were known by their military designations like P-40 & P-51.

« Last Edit: Jan 12^th, 2006 at 6:28am by Hagar »

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Reply #19 - Jan 12^th, 2006 at 8:46am

Papa9571 Offline
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On 9 December 1940 the British Purchasing Comission sent a letter to North American Aviation stating that the NA-73 airplanes have been given the official designation of "Mustang".

The US Army insisted on the name Apache for the A-36 version but it never stuck.

One other side note.

The P-51 first entered service in 1941 and the last were "retired" in 1984.

And we owe the British a big thank you for bringing the P-51 in being.

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Reply #20 - Jan 12^th, 2006 at 9:33am

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Actually that was the Balkans that Hitler had to get Musilini out of trouble. The same could be said for the early north African campaigns. The invasion of Crete was an entirely German affair.

LOL!!! Looks like I got that wrong.

Quote:

You forget that in the closing months of the war the Russians did attack.

I didn't forget that. I just considered that as the Japanese phrase: The Russians were "the thief at the fire". In Japan, most houses were made of wood and paper, so they were highly combustable. So when a house catches fire, everyone appreciates the tragedy such an event is, and when someone come in and starts stealing things from the house when everyone else is trying to put the fire out, that thief is considered to be the lowest of the lows, and that's how the Japanese considered the Russians. They were attepting to enlist the Russians to mediate for a peace at the end of the war, and the Russians were fully involved in the doublecross, therefore "the thief at the fire".

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Reply #21 - Jan 12^th, 2006 at 10:10pm

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12) German Army Group A drove to seize Russian oil fields in the Crimea.

May I assume that this is the Army that was stopped at Stalingrad?

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Reply #22 - Jan 13^th, 2006 at 6:31am

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May I assume that this is the Army that was stopped at Stalingrad?

That was the Sixth Army. Whether they were one and the same I cannot tell you.

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Reply #23 - Jan 13^th, 2006 at 10:23am

dcunning30 Offline
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May I assume that this is the Army that was stopped at Stalingrad?

I can't add much detail. Out of disclosure, I just started a book on the battle of Kursk. I'm sure I'll learn much more about Army Group A by the time I'm done.

http://www.answers.com/main/ntquery;jsessionid=cs8ojt6451oph?method=4&dsid=2222&...

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Reply #24 - Jan 13^th, 2006 at 12:54pm

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If the army group A you're referring to was involved in the battle of Kursk then it would not have consisted of the Sixth Army that had by that time already been defeated at Stalingrad.

That link you've provided has also confirmed my belief that calling an army group A/B etc was simpy a way of dividing your forces in a pincer movement such as the Blitzkrieg attacks on the low countries and Russia. Which means that the question referring to Army Group A could have been answered correctly in many very different ways.

Woodlouse2002 PITA and BAR!!!!!!!!&&&&Our Sovereign Lord the King chargeth and commandeth all persons, being assembled, immediately to disperse themselves, and peaceably to depart to their habitations, or to their lawful business, upon the pains contained in the Act made in the first year of King George the First for preventing tumults and riotous assemblies. God Save the King.&&&&Viva la revolution!

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Reply #25 - Jan 13^th, 2006 at 9:38pm

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I mistakenly thought that German eastern advances were concluded after Stalingrad.

Here is a great article on The Battle of Kursk.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Kursk

It is difficult to determine where the German advances took place without a map but I thought that the oil regions of the Cacausus were cut off after the defeat at Stalingrad.

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Reply #26 - Jan 18^th, 2006 at 9:29pm

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The Beaufighter was a long-range heavy fighter modification of the Bristol Aeroplane Company's earlier Beaufort torpedo bomber design. Unlike the Beaufort, the Beaufighter had a long career and served in almost all theatres of war, first as a night fighter, then as a strike fighter, and eventually replaced the Beaufort as a torpedo bomber.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bristol_Beaufighter

Most famous, imo, for its role as a night fighter, using very early radar.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Cunningham_(Royal_Air_Force)
Quote:

Group Captain John "Cat's Eyes" Cunningham CBE, DSO and two Bars, DFC and Bar, (1917-July 2002), was an Officer in the Royal Air Force during World War II. Flying first Blenheims and then the powerful Bristol Beaufighter, by the end of the Blitz in May 1941 he had become the most famous night fighter pilot, successfully claiming 14 night raiders using AI (Airborne Interception - the aircraft version of what became later know as radar.)

No! I did'nt Google that!

Wink

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