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FS X 64 bit (Read 20972 times)
Jan 9th, 2006 at 8:56pm

Dannyboy   Offline
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Does anyone know if there will be a 64 bit edition to the new  FSX flight sim? And will the new Vista be 64 bit? I think looking into my crystal ball a new dual processor machine with Vista is in my future!  Grin

Look at other sites for a posting on some graphics hardware.
« Last Edit: Jan 9th, 2006 at 11:07pm by Dannyboy »  

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Reply #1 - Jan 9th, 2006 at 11:23pm

GunnerMan   Offline
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Yes Vista will have 32 and 64 bit versions. Don't know if Fs10 will be or not I hope so.
 

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Reply #2 - Jan 10th, 2006 at 4:22am

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well with all the new eye-candy they are eludeing to i hope its 64bit enabled.....dont like slideshows
 

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Reply #3 - Jan 10th, 2006 at 6:20am

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  I was reading on microsoft sight that the FS X was designed to work on the new vista program first .and was to use all of its capabilities. and would be able to work on xp and others second. Tongue
 
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Reply #4 - Jan 10th, 2006 at 6:47am

Delta_   Offline
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I suspect it will be patched for 64-bit, but you better make sure you have lots of RAM, atleast twice the recommended! Wink
 

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Reply #5 - Jan 11th, 2006 at 12:32pm

Dannyboy   Offline
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Thanks for the replies  Smiley
 

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Reply #6 - Jan 11th, 2006 at 8:29pm

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If it is 64bit you shoudnt need any more ram then a 32 bit version. 64bit is a bit step up from 32bit, it is much faster and handels data much better. If anything you will need less ram.
 

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Reply #7 - Jan 12th, 2006 at 5:44am

Delta_   Offline
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If it is 64bit you shoudnt need any more ram then a 32 bit version. 64bit is a bit step up from 32bit, it is much faster and handels data much better. If anything you will need less ram.


The processor will be handling twice the data, so you need twice the RAM.
 

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Reply #8 - Jan 12th, 2006 at 2:40pm

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although more ram is better.
the bottleneck in 32bit systems is the bus between the processor and the ram.
the ram has to wait for the last packet to reach the cpu before it can send the next and the cpu has to wait for the complete packet to arrive before it can start processing it.
{edit} and vice-versa

thats a very simplified explanation.
 

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Reply #9 - Jan 12th, 2006 at 3:21pm

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Is a 64 bit system actually passing around larger word lengths?  I thought this had more to do with how the processor did math.  It takes a lot fewer cycles to multiply and divide 32 bit numbers in a processor capable of 64 bits than it does in a pure 32 bit processor.  Although I'm not computer science guy so I could have that wrong...
 
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Reply #10 - Jan 12th, 2006 at 3:48pm

Delta_   Offline
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Bits are the numbers 1 and 0. 32-bit can process 32 of these at once.  64-bit is double that.  That is double the data.

Chris_F you are right, it will take a 64-bit processor half the time to process something, because it can do twice as much.
 

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Reply #11 - Jan 12th, 2006 at 7:38pm

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Delta that is false. Yes the cpu can handle twice the data but your cpu does not dictate how much ram is used. If a cpu becomes faster all it means is it will end up waiting for the ram to give it data or wait for the ram to take the data. I don't know where you get that it will use more ram. The amount of ram used is dictated soley by what the hard disk puts into it. At bootup maybe 2 megs of ram is used, then as you see that Windows splash screen with the little blue bar moving that is where the OS is getting fed into the system ram(XP uses about 256 megs of ram). Then whatever else you want to run, say a game. May use 600 megs of ram. What 64bit means is a cpu can handle much more data faster, a cpu is like a network router it send the data where it needs to go. I would rather have faster ram more than more ram because thwe faster ram can keep up with the cpu's requests. The cpu only puts in what it needs/can put in. The ONLY reason we need more ram is our programs get larger, our game suse better bigger textures and engines. Our OS is filled with new features all this needs to go into the ram, a cpu does not say how much ram is needed. BTW 64bit has ended the 4 gig memory limit and the max amount of memory allowable now is I think unknown. It is a large amount though.

 

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Reply #12 - Jan 12th, 2006 at 7:46pm

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Delta that is false. Yes the cpu can handle twice the data but your cpu does not dictate how much ram is used. If a cpu becomes faster all it means is it will end up waiting for the ram to give it data or wait for the ram to take the data. I don't know where you get that it will use more ram. The amount of ram used is dictated soley by what the hard disk puts into it. At bootup maybe 2 megs of ram is used, then as you see that Windows splash screen with the little blue bar moving that is where the OS is getting fed into the system ram(XP uses about 256 megs of ram). Then whatever else you want to run, say a game. May use 600 megs of ram. What 64bit means is a cpu can handle much more data faster, a cpu is like a network router it send the data where it needs to go. I would rather have faster ram more than more ram because thwe faster ram can keep up with the cpu's requests. The cpu only puts in what it needs/can put in. The ONLY reason we need more ram is our programs get larger, our game suse better bigger textures and engines. Our OS is filled with new features all this needs to go into the ram, a cpu does not say how much ram is needed. BTW 64bit has ended the 4 gig memory limit and the max amount of memory allowable now is I think unknown. It is a large amount though.



Someone's been doing research. Roll Eyes
 
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Reply #13 - Jan 13th, 2006 at 5:55am

Delta_   Offline
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Quote:
Delta that is false. Yes the cpu can handle twice the data but your cpu does not dictate how much ram is used. If a cpu becomes faster all it means is it will end up waiting for the ram to give it data or wait for the ram to take the data. I don't know where you get that it will use more ram. The amount of ram used is dictated soley by what the hard disk puts into it. At bootup maybe 2 megs of ram is used, then as you see that Windows splash screen with the little blue bar moving that is where the OS is getting fed into the system ram(XP uses about 256 megs of ram). Then whatever else you want to run, say a game. May use 600 megs of ram. What 64bit means is a cpu can handle much more data faster, a cpu is like a network router it send the data where it needs to go. I would rather have faster ram more than more ram because thwe faster ram can keep up with the cpu's requests. The cpu only puts in what it needs/can put in. The ONLY reason we need more ram is our programs get larger, our game suse better bigger textures and engines. Our OS is filled with new features all this needs to go into the ram, a cpu does not say how much ram is needed. BTW 64bit has ended the 4 gig memory limit and the max amount of memory allowable now is I think unknown. It is a large amount though.



The compiled data has to go somewhere.  It is needed for the program so it is loaded into the RAM and virtual memory if there is a lack of RAM.  A 64-bit processor can handle data amounts twice as large as a 32-bit processor.  So yes the processor has to wait for the data.  That is why RAM is getting faster so it can keep up with these new processors.

The limit for the 64-bit processor is 16GB of RAM.  If your processor can compile a program and not fill the memory in a 32-bit environment it will fill the exact same amount in a 64-bit environment, so it will not use twice the memory.

Data is added and erased from memory however the data that could not fit on the RAM is put in a que to go into the RAM, just like normal.  The processor will continue to compile the data and put it back into the RAM for use.  The data chunks are larger in a 64-bit processor, the data is sent back to the RAM for use by the program.  Whilst this is happening it continues to process the data.  Filling the RAM up with twice as much compiled data in a set time.  Then more uncompiled data is sent to the RAM.  In a set amount of time the processor will fill the memory with twice as much compiled data which needs to be used so it can be overwritten by new uncompiled data.  Hence a bottleneck occurs.  Yes faster RAM will help a lot, because it will speed up this process or using and erasing the compiled data.  However RAM is not fast enough yet.  The launch of DDR3 next year will probably clear this problem up.

If you look at how Windows Vista works you will see that it requires twice as much RAM for the 64-bit version than 32-bit.

Edit:  It is assuming that the 64-bit processor is running a 64-bit app, and the 32-bit processor a 32-bit app.
« Last Edit: Jan 13th, 2006 at 7:49am by Delta_ »  

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Reply #14 - Jan 13th, 2006 at 7:13am

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I love reading heated arguments about the inner workings of the computer's brain... Wink...!

(My brain is amazingly simple in comparison!)...LOL...!

I never had any problems with understanding the inner workings of my dear old 48K Sinclair Spectrum computer, using the lovely Zilog Z80, 8-bit processor.... Wink...!
In those early days (1980+) I programmed mostly in pure Machine-Code language....
...a lost art nowadays... Roll Eyes...!
(Followed by the Commodore Amiga 500/1200 16-bit computer).

Paul...64-bit....WOW!...what's that?...Roll Eyes... Wink... Grin...!
LOL...!
 

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Reply #15 - Jan 13th, 2006 at 8:07am

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Quote:
I love reading heated arguments about the inner workings of the computer's brain... Wink...


Yes, but the wet runway argument was much easier to follow Roll Eyes

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Reply #16 - Jan 13th, 2006 at 8:15am

Delta_   Offline
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Yes, but the wet runway argument was much easier to follow Roll Eyes

Matt


I'm really not trying to start an arguement, just a discussion, it is a difficult subject that is hard to explain. Wink
 

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Reply #17 - Jan 13th, 2006 at 8:34am

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Quote:
I'm really not trying to start an arguement, just a discussion, it is a difficult subject that is hard to explain. Wink



I think that anything that's hard to explain is best left until tomorrow...!

LOL... Grin...!

Paul...brain in standby mode... Wink.... Grin...!
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Reply #18 - Jan 13th, 2006 at 9:10am

expat   Offline
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Quote:
I'm really not trying to start an arguement, just a discussion, it is a difficult subject that is hard to explain. Wink


It was just light hearted come back.  I know the feeling. I was on the ramp yesterday, piss wet through in the rain, did not see a single reflection  Wink
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Reply #19 - Jan 13th, 2006 at 9:25am

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It was just light hearted come back.  I know the feeling. I was on the ramp yesterday, piss wet through in the rain, did not see a single reflection  Wink
Matt


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WOW...!

Paul... 8)...!

...just have a chew on my neck... Wink...!
 

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Reply #20 - Jan 13th, 2006 at 11:15am

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...just have a chew on my neck... Wink...!



Sorry Fozzer, but a bit of old leather does not  do it for me, however a Hammer House of Horror babe, now that is another matter..drool, drool 8)

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Reply #21 - Jan 13th, 2006 at 7:14pm

GunnerMan   Offline
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Well I did stuble upon Microsofts website saying that 1-2 64bit cpu machines can handle up to 128 Gb of Physical memory max for a 1-2 32bit cpu is 4 GB.

If I understand you right you are saying the 64bit cpu makes larger "packets" because it can any the data that dosen't fit on the ram will be stored on a harddisk in the pagefile and when it can it will take from the page file and put into the ram. If I am correct at what you are saying then I don't see how the 64 bit cpu uses more data.  If a packet will be to big to fit on the remaining ram can't it just make a smaller packet or wait a little longer for space to become avalible? The cpu can handle 64 bits of data at once but rember I will need fewer 64bit chuncks than I will need 32 bit chuncks. You may be right and I not understand it at all, I am just using my simple point of view to try and decifer what is happening, and it just boggles me that my 512 meg program can turn into a 1 gig program just by getting processed more efficiantley...
I looked here http://www.microsoft.com/technet/windowsvista/evaluate/hardware/entpguid.mspx and it seems to say 512 will be required for either OS.

 

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Reply #22 - Jan 14th, 2006 at 1:13am

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I programmed mostly in pure Machine-Code language....
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Man you are a glutton for aggrivation arent you Shocked
 

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Reply #23 - Jan 14th, 2006 at 3:17am

Delta_   Offline
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I got the information for Windows Vista from the interview of Nigel Page, from Microsoft.

Here are some quotes from the interview:
http://www.apcstart.com/teched/pivot/entry.php?id=6

It is possible having double memory might be for performance of the 64-bit system rather than necessity.
 

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Reply #24 - Jan 17th, 2006 at 8:54pm

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There seems to be some confusion about all this. CPUs and processing speak in terms of binary, not decimal, which seems to be the misunderstanding.

64bit means processing in 64bit integers, or 64bit address space. That is not 2 times more than 32bit, it is more than 4 billion times more address space.

You must convert binary to decimal to get an idea of how big this actually is. Binary (base 2) times 64 = 18446744073709551616, which is just over 18 quintillion.

Binary (base 2) times 32 is only a mere 4294967296, or just over 4 billion.

Address space is the amount of binary data that can be registered and held in RAM. Each space is assigned a location (address) one byte in length. With 32bit, your are limited to the 4GB (4 billion bytes) before the OS runs out of numbers (addresses) to assign. Using 64bit registers, with the larger integers, the RAM can be assigned up to 18 billion billion bytes of address space. That's the max RAM a 64bit OS can use -- 18 billion GB (or 18 exabytes). It's virtually unlimited.

How this all equates to performance in flight sims is beyond my scope. But, I am confident it will help and has potential to help A LOT.
 

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Reply #25 - Jan 17th, 2006 at 11:52pm

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I hate math. Roll Eyes
 
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Reply #26 - Jan 18th, 2006 at 12:36pm

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I reckon he made up those numbers. Quintillion, exabyte. Really. Roll Eyes
 

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Reply #27 - Jan 19th, 2006 at 9:11am

Dannyboy   Offline
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There is a guy a my work place that has an IBM with AMD dual processors, and he says once you have had a dual processor machine you will not want to go back to a single processor or even a dual core processor. He can run multiple programs and windows and even a DVD movie all at the same time and move them around on the screen without any hesitation. Just thought I'd throw that in, have a good day!  Grin
 

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Reply #28 - Jan 19th, 2006 at 11:11am

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Dual-core and dual cpu is the same.  Just one requires two sockets and other only requires one.  Wink
 

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Reply #29 - Jan 19th, 2006 at 11:50am

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Dual-core and dual cpu is the same.  Just one requires two sockets and other only requires one.  Wink

Which is obviously the difference. As with two cores your pushing twice as much data through the one socket where as with duel processors you have two sockets so it's potentially twice as fast. Tongue
 

Woodlouse2002 PITA and BAR!!!!!!!!&&&&Our Sovereign Lord the King chargeth and commandeth all persons, being assembled, immediately to disperse themselves, and peaceably to depart to their habitations, or to their lawful business, upon the pains contained in the Act made in the first year of King George the First for preventing tumults and riotous assemblies. God Save the King.&&&&Viva la revolution!
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Reply #30 - Jan 19th, 2006 at 12:06pm

Delta_   Offline
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Which is obviously the difference. As with two cores your pushing twice as much data through the one socket where as with duel processors you have two sockets so it's potentially twice as fast. Tongue


Potentially, but not in practice.  Here is some random tests done on a dual core mac vs a dual cpu mac. 
http://www.macworld.com/news/2005/10/25/dualcorebenchmarks/index.php
Bear in mind the dual-cpu model lowest is a 2.7GHz model.  Look at the 2 2.3GHz scores.  They are more comparable.
 

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Reply #31 - Jan 19th, 2006 at 12:33pm

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Potentially, but not in practice.  Here is some random tests done on a dual core mac vs a dual cpu mac.  
http://www.macworld.com/news/2005/10/25/dualcorebenchmarks/index.php
Bear in mind the dual-cpu model lowest is a 2.7GHz model.  Look at the 2 2.3GHz scores.  They are more comparable.

There will come a time though that potential will be what matters when it comes to development. Though not any time soon I'm sure. Smiley
 

Woodlouse2002 PITA and BAR!!!!!!!!&&&&Our Sovereign Lord the King chargeth and commandeth all persons, being assembled, immediately to disperse themselves, and peaceably to depart to their habitations, or to their lawful business, upon the pains contained in the Act made in the first year of King George the First for preventing tumults and riotous assemblies. God Save the King.&&&&Viva la revolution!
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