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A new WWII question for the New Year (Read 210 times)
Reply #45 - Jan 9th, 2006 at 11:23am

Felix/FFDS   Offline
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But, in a way, I think you're supporting the "War for Resources" argument.

The strategy of going after the oil tankers makes sense.  Modern war runs on oil, to fuel everything from the machines themselves, to the power plants (although I would suspect that most power plants of that time/place ran on coal).  POL, as we all know, are/were one of the critical ways to hit an enemy's war making capabilities.

 

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Reply #46 - Jan 9th, 2006 at 11:28am

dcunning30   Offline
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Quote:
Modern war runs on oil, to fuel everything from the machines themselves, to the power plants (although I would suspect that most power plants of that time/place ran on coal).


I don't know of a single combat or auxilary ship in WWII that used coal.  Every major navy converted to fuel-oil in the inter-war years.  And I used those examples to illustrate the importance of oil.  The facts remain, although the embargos of all raw resources were alarming to Japan, it was the embargo of oil that proved most alarming.

I recommend reading "The Rising Sun" by John Toland.  He discusses this subject to a great detail.
 

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Reply #47 - Jan 9th, 2006 at 12:14pm

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I don't know of a single combat or auxilary ship in WWII that used coal.  Every major navy converted to fuel-oil in the inter-war years.  And I used those examples to illustrate the importance of oil.


'Scuse me - in my thinking, (remember, I work for a power generation equipment manufacturer) for me a power plant is an electricity generating station.  At that time, MOST power plants for the generation of electricity ran on on coal

Quote:
 The facts remain, although the embargos of all raw resources were alarming to Japan, it was the embargo of oil that proved most alarming.


I have no doubt there.  No Oil, no means of getting your troops around, and no means of getting your resources to where they had to go!
 

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Reply #48 - Jan 9th, 2006 at 12:17pm

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Quote:
I don't know of a single combat or auxilary ship in WWII that used coal.  Every major navy converted to fuel-oil in the inter-war years.  And I used those examples to illustrate the importance of oil.  The facts remain, although the embargos of all raw resources were alarming to Japan, it was the embargo of oil that proved most alarming.

I recommend reading "The Rising Sun" by John Toland.  He discusses this subject to a great detail.

The coal would be needed to run the power stations and iron works and most of the other facilities required in the manufacture of ships, planes weapons etc. Therefore without the coal there would be no need for the oil. Tongue
 

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Reply #49 - Jan 9th, 2006 at 12:56pm

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Also keep in mind that Germany had the same problem with oil though not to the extent Japan did. That was one of the reasons the allies always tried to taget refineries anywhere in occupied europe.

What they did have was vast rescouces of coal with they they refined into gasoline and diesel for their war machine.

They had a technology 60 years ago that China still uses today.
 
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Reply #50 - Jan 9th, 2006 at 1:46pm

dcunning30   Offline
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Whoa!

I thought we were talking about ships, I didn't catch your shifting to discussding power generation buildings.  In that case, coal fueled power generation plants are in use, even today.

And that still doesn't make the case.  As a matter of fact, modern war (even to 1940 standards) is fueled by placing munitions onto target.  We're talking OIL (in various refined states) to get them there!!!

Japan, being an island nation, lives and dies by ocean going vessels doing stuff, we're talking fuel oil!  Many authors have discussed this subject regarding Japan and the leadup to Dec 7th.  Members of the Combined Fleet staff were alarmed when the oil embargo took place.  1st of all, they weren't pleased with the militerists in the army and the Tojo cabinet agitating for war with the US.  They felt they weren't ready, but reluctantly realized they were using so much fuel-oil to support the army's activities in China, they had no choice but to go along, or else they would end up running dry in less than a year.  The die had been cast.
 

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Reply #51 - Jan 9th, 2006 at 2:11pm

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We're talking about the same thing here.

Oil was absolutely essential to Japan to run its war machinery.  Conquering China was a way to get that country's resources for themselves.

The OIL embargo, I agree, was the "drop" that forced the Japanese into executing war plans against the US.  In their mind, this was probably as much an "aggression" against their survival and honour, as a the attack on Pearl Harbor was to the US.

Executing a decisive "divine wind" attack to cripple the US war making capability in the Pacific Ocean would have allowed them to roll up the resource/oil rich Southeast Asia, which they practically did.

Yes, bullets and weapons carry out war, but without the logistics to get them there, they're so much dead weight.

The example of the power plants was given only to EMPHASIZE the necessity of resources, coal in this case, and in a convoluted way, the necessity of OIL to carry the COAL to the mainland.

 

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Reply #52 - Jan 9th, 2006 at 2:33pm

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Quote:
The example of the power plants was given only to EMPHASIZE the necessity of resources, coal in this case, and in a convoluted way, the necessity of OIL to carry the COAL to the mainland.

A lot of the older cargo ships even on the Atlantic convoys were coal-burners. Britain is also an island nation & with most of Western Europe occupied by Germany was just as dependent on sea transport as Japan. I believe that no high octane aviation fuel was refined in Britain during WWII so like many other necessities it all had to come from the US.
 

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Reply #53 - Jan 9th, 2006 at 2:43pm

dcunning30   Offline
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Quote:
Oil was absolutely essential to Japan to run its war machinery.  Conquering China was a way to get that country's resources for themselves.


Japan attacked China for other reasons.  They weren't thinking in terms of obtaining resources until the imposed embargoes.  The reason for attacking China "The China Incident" had more to do with national martial pride than anything else.  It's a lengthy discussion, I'll condense as much as possible.  Once Japan was forced open by Commodore Perry, they did an absolutely amazing transformation from a midheval/fedel society to a player on the world stage.  Two events emerge as prominent:

The Boxer Rebellion in China - Japan learned that the imperialistic western nations were carving Asia up for themselves.  They decided that they need to get their own piece or else find themselves becoming somebody's posession.  This is the primary motivation for Japan's seizing Manchuria.

The defeat of the Russian navy at the Battle of Tsushina - This thrust Japan onto the world stage as having arrived as a player to be reconed with both in the west's mind and in their own mind.

Quote:
The OIL embargo, I agree, was the "drop" that forced the Japanese into executing war plans against the US.  In their mind, this was probably as much an "aggression" against their survival and honour, as a the attack on Pearl Harbor was to the US.


As I have previously spoke of, Japan became incensed and their national pride offended when the A, B, and D members of the ABCD nations imposed embargos.  To them, they felt these western imperialistic powers had some nerve imposing sanctions on them for doing what the western nations had been themselves doing.  This was the height of hypocracy.  I happen to agree with this assessment.

Quote:
Executing a decisive "divine wind" attack to cripple the US war making capability in the Pacific Ocean would have allowed them to roll up the resource/oil rich Southeast Asia, which they practically did.


The Divine Wind refers to kamakaze, a reference to the typhoon that destroyed the Mongol fleet as it sought to invade Japan.

Quote:
The example of the power plants was given only to EMPHASIZE the necessity of resources, coal in this case, and in a convoluted way, the necessity of OIL to carry the COAL to the mainland.


I understand, but i've never read any concern for coal like I've read on numerous ocassions that the Japanese were concerned about oil, and the lack thereof as a result of the embargos, and later the campaign against merchant shipping.
 

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