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A new WWII question for the New Year (Read 209 times)
Reply #30 - Jan 7th, 2006 at 6:16pm

Hagar   Offline
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And Hagar...

The Yorktown and Saratoga launched the same attack against Pearl Harbor during one set of war games in the mid 1930's. It took the harbor by suprise and the upper eschelon vowed to never let it happen again....

I seem to remember reading that General 'Billy' Mitchell warned about the same thing. In fact he forecast Pearl Harbor being attacked in much the same way as it was. Ironically it might have been his own bombing experiments against warships in the 1920s that gave the Japanese the idea.

PS. http://www.wpafb.af.mil/museum/history/postwwi/gbm.htm
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MITCHELL THE PROPHET
Billy Mitchell was a visionary far ahead of his time. His predictions on the role of airpower in a future war were uncanny, though they made little impression upon his superiors in the mid-1920's. Following a trip to Japan early in 1924, Mitchell submitted a report which has been labelled "the masterpiece of his career." In it, he foretold of Japanese expansionist ambitions in the Pacific and presented what he considered would be the start of a Pacific war. Basically, he stated such a war would start with a Japanese air and sea attack upon Pearl Harbor in Hawaii with an accompanying aerial attack on the Phillipines:
 

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Reply #31 - Jan 7th, 2006 at 6:20pm

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Ironically it might have been his own bombing experiments against warships inthe 1920s that gave the Japanese the idea.

It was our attack on Taranto that gave them the idea.
 

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Reply #32 - Jan 7th, 2006 at 6:21pm

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Or at least prooved that it was possible.
 

Woodlouse2002 PITA and BAR!!!!!!!!&&&&Our Sovereign Lord the King chargeth and commandeth all persons, being assembled, immediately to disperse themselves, and peaceably to depart to their habitations, or to their lawful business, upon the pains contained in the Act made in the first year of King George the First for preventing tumults and riotous assemblies. God Save the King.&&&&Viva la revolution!
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Reply #33 - Jan 7th, 2006 at 6:32pm

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Or at least prooved that it was possible.

That might be so but Admiral Yamamoto was at Harvard University from 1919 to 1921 & between 1925 and 1928 he served as Naval Attaché to the United States. He took a keen interest in military affairs & must have known about Mitchell's experiments. Despite planning the attack on Pearl Harbor, Yamamoto had serious misgivings about attacking America.
 

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Reply #34 - Jan 7th, 2006 at 11:33pm

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And now I understand. I never really understood why the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor, or what they had agains the US, but now I get it. Thanks Rotty. Smiley


  They were planning on taking as much of the Pacific as they could for a long time; the Philippines, for example, were a major bone of contention as regards the US (our history of occupation there is not exactly stellar, either).  They wanted more land and more resources (esp. oil), and knocking over the islands of the Pacific would be a snap compared to attacking their mainland neighbors like China or Russia... and the US fleet was the only major obstacle.
I'd imagine  the attack on the US Pacific fleet(Pearl Harbor was targeted because most of the fleet was there) was in the works even before Hitler came to power. I was just describing how Germany and Japan wound up at war against the US at the time they did.
« Last Edit: Jan 8th, 2006 at 10:18am by beaky »  

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Reply #35 - Jan 8th, 2006 at 4:34am

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I see. Maybe I should research this furthur on my own.  Wink
 

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Reply #36 - Jan 8th, 2006 at 9:08am

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I see. Maybe I should research this furthur on my own.  Wink



Aha... the lure of History beckons, beware, once you go down that path, there is no turning back!  You will spend hours, nay, DAYS, pondering such questions as whether it was the longbow or the lay of the land that doomed the French knights at Agincourt? Did the French really HELP the nascent American colonies in their War of Independence, or were they using the overt help to wiggle their way into the upper echelons of American life and twist to their advantage?  How did the Romans use their famous short swords against "barbarians" with longer weapons??

You are hooked by a pox from which there is no escape!

MUAHHHHAAAAhAAAA!
 

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Reply #37 - Jan 8th, 2006 at 5:29pm

TacitBlue   Offline
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I've always been more interested in ancient history, and more on the human side of it. I like reading about what everyday life was like at different times in different places and how the old mythology fit into everything. It's fascinating to see how they explained the world around them with Gods and heros. I've only recently developed an interest in WWII, and there again, I wonder more about what it was like to live through the Holocaust or the Battle of Britain than what motivated Hitler to allie himself with the Japanese or what the turning point of the battle of Midway was.
 

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Reply #38 - Jan 8th, 2006 at 5:31pm

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Actually Rotty...

The Japanese had attacked China and had been at war with the since the early 1930's.

Events such as the rape of Nanking and their trreatment of prisoners of war told of the unspeakable horrors and atrocities that they were capable of.

You must remember that the Japenese firmly believed in their own superiority as a warrior nation. Their code of honor said you kill yourself, you do not surrender to you enemy. If you surrendered you lost not only your own honor but that of your famlies as well. They expected their enemies to act the same way and when they didnt they were classed as sub-human and were treated as such. Many captured prisoners had their heads cut off or were shot because of that code.

That is why to this day there is so much resentment towards the Japanese around the world and why China was gravely offended by the Japanese Prime Ministers visit to the monument to honor Japanese war dead.

The Japanese didn't consider attacking the US until the US stopped sending scrap iron, oil, and other raw materials to Japan to protest Japan's war against China.

 
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Reply #39 - Jan 8th, 2006 at 6:04pm

Woodlouse2002   Offline
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Actually after 1905 a war between America and Japan was inevitable. After the Russians lost the 1905 war against Japan it left only Japan and the USA as major powers in the pacific and it was only a matter of time before they came head to head.
 

Woodlouse2002 PITA and BAR!!!!!!!!&&&&Our Sovereign Lord the King chargeth and commandeth all persons, being assembled, immediately to disperse themselves, and peaceably to depart to their habitations, or to their lawful business, upon the pains contained in the Act made in the first year of King George the First for preventing tumults and riotous assemblies. God Save the King.&&&&Viva la revolution!
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Reply #40 - Jan 8th, 2006 at 11:37pm

beaky   Offline
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Quote:
Actually Rotty...

The Japanese had attacked China and had been at war with the since the early 1930's.

Events such as the rape of Nanking and their trreatment of prisoners of war told of the unspeakable horrors and atrocities that they were capable of.

You must remember that the Japenese firmly believed in their own superiority as a warrior nation. Their code of honor said you kill yourself, you do not surrender to you enemy. If you surrendered you lost not only your own honor but that of your famlies as well. They expected their enemies to act the same way and when they didnt they were classed as sub-human and were treated as such. Many captured prisoners had their heads cut off or were shot because of that code.

That is why to this day there is so much resentment towards the Japanese around the world and why China was gravely offended by the Japanese Prime Ministers visit to the monument to honor Japanese war dead.

The Japanese didn't consider attacking the US until the US stopped sending scrap iron, oil, and other raw materials to Japan to protest Japan's war against China.



How I forgot about that I have no idea... embarassing. I had a kung-fu teacher who was a rifleman with the Chinese Army during that awful period; he was very proud of his service. Good thing he doesn't visit these forums... he's old, but can easily  kick my butt...  Roll Eyes  Grin
 

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Reply #41 - Jan 9th, 2006 at 9:53am

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Alot of good points.

I agree that Japan had plans to go to war with the US for several decades, and the US had plans with Japan.  I maintain, the war in Europe was contemporaneous to the goings on in Asia and the Pacific.  However, Japan and Germany sought to ultimately coordinate, purely out of convenience and opportunity.  Japan had constructed a doctrine of the "decisive battle".  They built their fleet and designed their ships with that aim in mind.  The US navy also had plans called the "Orange plan", or doctrine, which, imho, fed right into Japan's "decisive battle" doctrine.  However, being denied their BB's at Pearl Harbor laid to waste the US Orange plan.

But anyway, the Pearl Harbor attack and the Japanese attacks in the Philippines and Malasia had one and only one goal in mind:  clear the way so Japan can get the resources, especially oil in Indo-China that they were denied when embargos were imposed after the Rape of Nanking.

You see, contrary to current critics claims:  the Gulf War was not the 1st war for oil.
 

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Reply #42 - Jan 9th, 2006 at 9:57am

Woodlouse2002   Offline
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You see, contrary to current critics claims:  the Gulf War was not the 1st war for oil.

Well if you consider the Gulf War to be for oil then it has to be pointed out that Japans intentions were not solely for oil but for coal, metal ores and everything as mainland Japan had little in the way of any natural resources. So on those grounds it could be said that the Gulf war is the first war when oil is of the most primary concern whereas Japans invasion of China was just an all out resource snatching affair.
 

Woodlouse2002 PITA and BAR!!!!!!!!&&&&Our Sovereign Lord the King chargeth and commandeth all persons, being assembled, immediately to disperse themselves, and peaceably to depart to their habitations, or to their lawful business, upon the pains contained in the Act made in the first year of King George the First for preventing tumults and riotous assemblies. God Save the King.&&&&Viva la revolution!
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Reply #43 - Jan 9th, 2006 at 10:12am

Hagar   Offline
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I've always been more interested in ancient history, and more on the human side of it. I like reading about what everyday life was like at different times in different places and how the old mythology fit into everything. It's fascinating to see how they explained the world around them with Gods and heros. I've only recently developed an interest in WWII, and there again, I wonder more about what it was like to live through the Holocaust or the Battle of Britain than what motivated Hitler to allie himself with the Japanese or what the turning point of the battle of Midway was.

I think this is a very good point. It's not possible to fully appreciate even comparatively recent historical events like WWII without taking the way people lived & thought at the time into account. I've noticed considerable changes throughout my lifetime & most things are very different now compared with even 50 years ago. Being around at the time some of these events were taking place helps me to understand it much better than many who were not even born until years or even decades afterwards. I'm afraid that many modern historians & documentary makers ignore this & look on things from a modern point of view. This gives a distorted picture to my mind.
 

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Reply #44 - Jan 9th, 2006 at 11:01am

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Woodlouse2002

I disagree.  Although they went after all the raw resources, but they had great priority for the oil.  And the history bears this out.  First off, Admiral Lockwood created the doctrine that his submariners go after Japanese shipping, with oilers being given high priority.  Also, as Lockwood's doctrine began showing results, the Japanese had to do their war planning around the availability of oil.  Prior to operation A-Go, the Japanese Mobile Fleet couldn't venture far away from Tawi-Tawi because there they could get raw bunker-c oil that didn't need to be refined, so bad was their need for oil to prosecute the war.

As many know, as the war progressed, Japanese aviators lacked sufficient training, why?  Because the lack of oil.  The Yamato's sortie to rendevious at Okanawa to disrupt the American landings was a suicide mission.  The knew this.  Why?  The fueled the small fleet with enough oil for a one-way mission.  They lacked enough oil to top off their tanks, so desperate was their need for oil.

Addition for a point of accuracy:  Although they fueled the fleet for a one-way mission, the officer in charge of dispensing the fuel-oil, out of sympathy, disobeyed orders and gave Yamato more fuel to attempt a return trip, just in case they survive.

....anyway,

The Japanese had the rubber and steel to build the ships and planes, but they lacked the oil to fuel them.

It was the 1st war for oil.   Roll Eyes
 

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