Search the archive:
 YaBB - Yet another Bulletin Board
 
   
 
  Simviation Forum › Combat Flight Simulators › Combat Flight Simulator 2 › AI A to A combat
(Moderators: Mitch., Fly2e, ozzy72, beaky, Clipper, JBaymore, Bob70, BigTruck)
‹ Previous Topic | Next Topic ›
Pages: 1 
Send Topic Print
AI A to A combat (Read 755 times)
Jan 1st, 2006 at 10:50pm

Falcon500   Offline
Colonel
Doing my best, against
the badger!
Northern Michigan, USA

Gender: male
 Posts: 1026
 *****
 
I noticed today in quick mission that the AI wingmen are horrible in dog fighting, i had four "reds" and three "blues" (incuding myself Wink) and i shot down three of the reds before i got shot down and the other two blues were shot down as the game respawned, the last bandit was behind me by 800 yards and my wing men were in formation (about 200 yards behind me on either side) and when i gave the help me command, they both peeled over in a vertical loop and ended up some 1300 yards behind me. As this was happening the bandit put shells all over my wing and fuselage. Some how i got behind the bandit and shot him down too.

I was in a Stock corsair and had it set with 60% fuel.

We were fighting four KI-46's

Makes me mad Angry
 
What do I do you ask? I struggle! Then destroy! Then try to put back together what I just broke on accident.....&&&&&&&&&&                        The GMax effect... The GMax effect
Back to top 
IP Logged
 
Reply #1 - Jan 2nd, 2006 at 11:24am

Woodlouse2002   Offline
Colonel
I like jam.
Cornwall, England

Gender: male
 Posts: 12574
 *****
 
Rookie AI are pretty bad but I noticed in the campaigns that if you keep them alive long enough then they actually become quite useful and even effective in some cases.
 
Woodlouse2002 PITA and BAR!!!!!!!!&&&&Our Sovereign Lord the King chargeth and commandeth all persons, being assembled, immediately to disperse themselves, and peaceably to depart to their habitations, or to their lawful business, upon the pains contained in the Act made in the first year of King George the First for preventing tumults and riotous assemblies. God Save the King.&&&&Viva la revolution!
Back to top 
IP Logged
 
Reply #2 - Jan 2nd, 2006 at 12:51pm

AvHistory   Offline
Colonel
Kinder & Gentler
NC, USA

Gender: male
 Posts: 577
 *****
 
Try "TAB" then 'attack my target' on each bandit one after another. AI should be set at highest skill level.
 
Back to top 
IP Logged
 
Reply #3 - Jan 3rd, 2006 at 11:42am

james007   Offline
Colonel
I love YaBB 1G - SP1!

Posts: 1514
 *****
 
Falcon 500 I notice through observation in flying in  quick missions is that the AI is not as bad as initialy depicted.

The problem is that we expect them to response in a certain way and when it does not we think right away they are not reacting properly.

You have to preposition  them properly or in other words you have to give them proper orders for them to be in position to take advantage of your next command.
This takes lot of practice.

If you have order them to split five minutes before then you cannot expect them to respond to your new order quickly.

It takes time to react to your new orders. You have to remember that this planes where not Jets. This planes where prop and their speed was a bit slower. Another thing you have to consider is that it takes time for your wing man to assest the situation and react appropiately.

Another thing to remember is that Quick mission was setup to increase you combat skill and not to improve your mission handeling ability.

Remember that you can pick the skill of your opponents but not of your squadron members.

There are nine levels available in CFS2 of different flying skills for the AI.

When you pick a level like rookie the program picks the next level either as non-aggressive or avearage or aggressive.

I suspect your wingman are always rookies but there skill level of agrression is determine by the program.

Thats the reason the Ai sometimes does not response properly as you would like them to do.

You have to remember they may bahave different when you create a mission.

No the Ai is far from perfect but it is better than we realize.


James007
« Last Edit: Jan 3rd, 2006 at 10:03pm by james007 »  
Back to top 
IP Logged
 
Reply #4 - Jan 4th, 2006 at 4:20pm

Falcon500   Offline
Colonel
Doing my best, against
the badger!
Northern Michigan, USA

Gender: male
 Posts: 1026
 *****
 
Dont get me wrong, the AI is beautiful, before i started playing Fighter Anthology, the AI was determined by three of four factors, (Fighter , Bomber , AC-130 , F-117)
The air to air (brains) were okay but the ground attack stunk, A-10's couldnt hit anything smaller than a single story house F-105's were prone to strafing and were horrible at it.

But CFS2 the air to ground is beautiful, the aircaft can hit anything and the bombs and torpedoes are accurate. But many a time I will make a mission with Corsair's providing air cover and me attacking ground targets but many times I need to set up long loiter times or multiple waypoints so the enemy can get closer and the Corsair's can find them.

I also wonder what is the real differance with the (airframe) settings in the .air files.
I understand that if you change the stock B-25's setting to a B-24's the flight of B-25's stays in level flight and fires their guns like madmen defending themselves. (more realistic). Rather than acting like fat fighters and rolling and looping through the sky. But what is the differance between the F4F and F6F? ???
 
What do I do you ask? I struggle! Then destroy! Then try to put back together what I just broke on accident.....&&&&&&&&&&                        The GMax effect... The GMax effect
Back to top 
IP Logged
 
Reply #5 - Jan 5th, 2006 at 2:40am

H   Offline
Colonel
2003: the year NH couldn't
save face...
NH, USA

Gender: male
 Posts: 6837
 *****
 
Quote:
But what is the difference between the F4F and F6F? ???
Aside from a lot more power in a larger frame and still managing some maneuverability (F6F)? Actually, I've only occasioned CFS2 so I can't properly ascertain their comparable AI charcteristics but, as player flyable, they perform differently (to the Hellcat's favor -- but the F4F isn't really that wild). 8)
 
Back to top 
IP Logged
 
Reply #6 - Jan 5th, 2006 at 7:28pm

Woodlouse2002   Offline
Colonel
I like jam.
Cornwall, England

Gender: male
 Posts: 12574
 *****
 
Quote:
Dont get me wrong, the AI is beautiful, before i started playing Fighter Anthology, the AI was determined by three of four factors, (Fighter , Bomber , AC-130 , F-117)
The air to air (brains) were okay but the ground attack stunk, A-10's couldnt hit anything smaller than a single story house F-105's were prone to strafing and were horrible at it.

But CFS2 the air to ground is beautiful, the aircaft can hit anything and the bombs and torpedoes are accurate. But many a time I will make a mission with Corsair's providing air cover and me attacking ground targets but many times I need to set up long loiter times or multiple waypoints so the enemy can get closer and the Corsair's can find them.

I also wonder what is the real differance with the (airframe) settings in the .air files.
I understand that if you change the stock B-25's setting to a B-24's the flight of B-25's stays in level flight and fires their guns like madmen defending themselves. (more realistic). Rather than acting like fat fighters and rolling and looping through the sky. But what is the differance between the F4F and F6F? ???

I should imagine that there are two AI modes. Bomber and fighter. The bombers will fly straight and level and shoot you with their guns, the fighters will twist and turn and try and dogfight. This would be the main factor in how an enemy aircraft fights. As for differences between single aircraft it sould be as with the player flyable aeroplanes minus fuel and ammo weight.
 
Woodlouse2002 PITA and BAR!!!!!!!!&&&&Our Sovereign Lord the King chargeth and commandeth all persons, being assembled, immediately to disperse themselves, and peaceably to depart to their habitations, or to their lawful business, upon the pains contained in the Act made in the first year of King George the First for preventing tumults and riotous assemblies. God Save the King.&&&&Viva la revolution!
Back to top 
IP Logged
 
Reply #7 - Jan 5th, 2006 at 10:10pm

james007   Offline
Colonel
I love YaBB 1G - SP1!

Posts: 1514
 *****
 
I have a question? Would not this difference of wieght and ammo give the Ai a tremedous advantage over the player.


James007
 
Back to top 
IP Logged
 
Reply #8 - Jan 5th, 2006 at 10:55pm

AvHistory   Offline
Colonel
Kinder & Gentler
NC, USA

Gender: male
 Posts: 577
 *****
 
Quote:
I have a question? Would not this difference of wieght and ammo give the Ai a tremedous advantage over the player.
James007


Not enough to overcome its predictability.  Beside you can always fly with a light fuel load if you wish.  

Ammo weight is more of a big deal cause you generally need it all.  A P-47 carries a little over 1/2 ton of .50 or about twice as much as a P-51.

A quick look at some German fighters suggests they generally carried less then a 1/4 ton of ammo & the Japanese fighters even less.

We experimented with padding the weight of AI only versions up to 50% fuel/100% ammo & they still were not that hard to kill.  We have not yet finilized if we are going to create & pad AI for MAW.
 
Back to top 
IP Logged
 
Reply #9 - Jan 6th, 2006 at 9:09am

james007   Offline
Colonel
I love YaBB 1G - SP1!

Posts: 1514
 *****
 
I believe in CFS2 the Ai does take into account the wieght of the fuel and Ammo weight. Thats the reason sometimes the Ai some find it hard to land on a Airbase.

As for the diference between the Hellcat and the Wildcat. You can find them here: http://www.acepilots.com/planes/main.html


James007
 
Back to top 
IP Logged
 
Reply #10 - Jan 6th, 2006 at 10:41am

AvHistory   Offline
Colonel
Kinder & Gentler
NC, USA

Gender: male
 Posts: 577
 *****
 
Quote:
I believe in CFS2 the Ai does take into account the wieght of the fuel and Ammo weight. Thats the reason sometimes the Ai some find it hard to land on a Airbase.
James007


The CFS2 AI does not account for fuel or ammo weight.  The AI landing problem has to do with a fixed glide slope issue in the landing routines software.

...

BTW: I don't expect AI to have a landing problem is MAW Grin  Some screens of large groups landing have been posted at sim outhouse a while back.


 
Back to top 
IP Logged
 
Reply #11 - Jan 6th, 2006 at 1:57pm

james007   Offline
Colonel
I love YaBB 1G - SP1!

Posts: 1514
 *****
 
That sounds nice and dandy. Even with CFS2 and CFS3 Ai short commings. Once you get to understand them you start to realize they are not that bad.

Now with all the upgrade done to CFS2 World map and all the airbases created by the community. I can not only fly in the Philipines Sea and South China but also over the Eastern Front and Burma.

MAW will bee a nice addition to the Hooby.

Now lets go and shoot down those AI before they get us first.  Oh , Oh, I see a Ki84 Frank on your six Bear. !Dive, Dive! LoL


James007

 
Back to top 
IP Logged
 
Reply #12 - Jan 6th, 2006 at 2:06pm

Woodlouse2002   Offline
Colonel
I like jam.
Cornwall, England

Gender: male
 Posts: 12574
 *****
 
Once you understand the CFS ai you realise how bad they are. Even in Ace mode it's easy to predict exactly what they're going to do. Turn in circles in CFS2 and dive and climb in CFS3.
 
Woodlouse2002 PITA and BAR!!!!!!!!&&&&Our Sovereign Lord the King chargeth and commandeth all persons, being assembled, immediately to disperse themselves, and peaceably to depart to their habitations, or to their lawful business, upon the pains contained in the Act made in the first year of King George the First for preventing tumults and riotous assemblies. God Save the King.&&&&Viva la revolution!
Back to top 
IP Logged
 
Reply #13 - Jan 6th, 2006 at 2:42pm

AvHistory   Offline
Colonel
Kinder & Gentler
NC, USA

Gender: male
 Posts: 577
 *****
 
Quote:
 Oh , Oh, I see a Ki84 Frank on your six Bear. !Dive, Dive! LoL
James007


...

One of ours no doubt.  Wink  And since I know what the AI is going to do I shall kill him in short order.  Shocked

...
« Last Edit: Jan 6th, 2006 at 7:03pm by AvHistory »  
Back to top 
IP Logged
 
Reply #14 - Jan 7th, 2006 at 11:37pm

Falcon500   Offline
Colonel
Doing my best, against
the badger!
Northern Michigan, USA

Gender: male
 Posts: 1026
 *****
 
I understand that bombers and fighters fly different Roll Eyes but all 70 some fighters from A-1's to YAK-141's shared the same fighter (brains)....

the only thing i can think of is that when F6F (brains) work to the advantage of F6F's where SBD (brains) use SBD advantages
 
What do I do you ask? I struggle! Then destroy! Then try to put back together what I just broke on accident.....&&&&&&&&&&                        The GMax effect... The GMax effect
Back to top 
IP Logged
 
Reply #15 - Jan 8th, 2006 at 8:31am

Woodlouse2002   Offline
Colonel
I like jam.
Cornwall, England

Gender: male
 Posts: 12574
 *****
 
Quote:
I understand that bombers and fighters fly different Roll Eyes but all 70 some fighters from A-1's to YAK-141's shared the same fighter (brains)....

the only thing i can think of is that when F6F (brains) work to the advantage of F6F's where SBD (brains) use SBD advantages

They'll all use the same tactics as far as the flight characteristics of the aircraft will allow.
 
Woodlouse2002 PITA and BAR!!!!!!!!&&&&Our Sovereign Lord the King chargeth and commandeth all persons, being assembled, immediately to disperse themselves, and peaceably to depart to their habitations, or to their lawful business, upon the pains contained in the Act made in the first year of King George the First for preventing tumults and riotous assemblies. God Save the King.&&&&Viva la revolution!
Back to top 
IP Logged
 
Reply #16 - Jan 8th, 2006 at 9:03am

Hagar   Offline
Colonel
My Spitfire Girl
Costa Geriatrica

Posts: 33159
 *****
 
I don't know much about mission building myself but if you create a mission instead of using QC the skill level & aggressiveness of the AI pilots can be defined & varied from Rookie to Ace. This should give a more realistic feel to combat. For example; you could have an ace pilot leading a flight of rookies. It's a long time since I was involved in any of this but I believe the category= line in the [MISC_DATA] section of the DP defines the type of aircraft it is (fighter, bomber etc) & might affect the way it performs in AI.

PS. We went to a lot of time & trouble investigating all this before releasing the Fox Four Korean War campaigns. Cody Coyote's mission building tute was a great help. The online version is posted at my Lair.
 
...

Founder & Sole Member - Grumpy's Over the Hill Club for Veteran Virtual Aviators
Member of the Fox Four Group

Need help? Try Grumpy's Lair

My photo gallery
Back to top 
IP Logged
 
Reply #17 - Jan 8th, 2006 at 8:19pm

The Mooster   Offline
Colonel
Good Ole Lancaster County, PA

Gender: male
 Posts: 182
 *****
 
hey has anyone else noticed that the names of wingmen are also people who made cfs2 ??? i know this is kinda late to be sayin anything
 
i enjoy long walks on the beach, yummie thai food, and obliterating my enemy's aircraft around them with a hail of bullets from 12 .50s. and/or a 75mm cannon.
Back to top 
IP Logged
 
Reply #18 - Jan 9th, 2006 at 12:25am

james007   Offline
Colonel
I love YaBB 1G - SP1!

Posts: 1514
 *****
 
Let me tell you one thing guys. To my surprise even to this day none of the Sims in the market have a perfect Ai. Most still have similar problems as CFS2 Ai has.

They do not have the restriction that the player have. Bomber some times act like fighters. Ai Bomber gunner are way too accruate and many more defeciencies and short commings.

But when you start flying in build campaigns and missions the Ai improves a little bit. Maybe because you get involved in the mission so much you do not notice the deficiencies that much any more.

But overall the Ai is not that horrible as previuosly believe. It does some things right.

What I would like see is for the Ai to be is little more realistic. Not impossible to defeat. More creative in its flying behavior and less predictable.

I would like it to fly according to the charateristic of each nations airforce its trying to mimic. In other words for example for the Japanese more acrobatic and for the US and the Germans more Boom and Zoom tatics when tactics make it possible.

I would like it to have the same limitations as the players plane. In other words more realistic but without making it impossible to defeat.

Aces and Veterans should bee pretty good shooters but not be expert marksman the never miss. They should miss but not as often as rockies.

I would like it to be as close to human pilots as possible and without beign unfair to any nations airforce.


James007





 
Back to top 
IP Logged
 
Reply #19 - Jan 9th, 2006 at 12:29am

james007   Offline
Colonel
I love YaBB 1G - SP1!

Posts: 1514
 *****
 
I found this Web on differnt tatics use during the war by different airforces to be able to defeat enemy fighters in Combat.

1.http://www.simhq.com/simhq3/sims/air_combat/boomandzoom/index.shtml

2.http://www.airwarfare.com/Sims/CFS2/tactics.htm

3.How to fight with a A6M2.http://www.airwarfare.com/Sims/CFS2/zero.htm

4.How to fight with a A6M5.http://www.airwarfare.com/Sims/CFS2/zero5.htm

5.How to fight with a Corsair.http://www.airwarfare.com/Sims/CFS2/corsair.htm

6.How to fight with a George.http://www.airwarfare.com/Sims/CFS2/george.htm

7.How to fight with a Hellcat.http://www.airwarfare.com/Sims/CFS2/hellcat.htm

8.How to fight in a P38 Lighting.http://www.airwarfare.com/Sims/CFS2/lightning.htm

9.How to dive Bomb.http://www.airwarfare.com/tactics/tactics_dive.htm

10.Carrier Ops.http://www.airwarfare.com/tactics/tactics_carrier.htm

11.Defensive flying.http://www.airwarfare.com/tactics/tactics_defensive.htm

12.Torpedo Bombing.http://www.airwarfare.com/tactics/tactics_torpedo.htm

13.General good advice and tatics to employ when flying and fighting.http://www.airwarfare.com/tactics/tactics_formation.htm

14. More Fighter tactics employ in 1942.http://www.airwarfare.com/tactics/tactics_fighter.htm

There is also some nice training miisions within the game that will help you deal with the Ai more effectively.


Check it out and tell me what you think

James007
 
Back to top 
IP Logged
 
Reply #20 - Jan 9th, 2006 at 6:10am

Hagar   Offline
Colonel
My Spitfire Girl
Costa Geriatrica

Posts: 33159
 *****
 
Quote:
I would like it to fly according to the charateristic of each nations airforce its trying to mimic. In other words for example for the Japanese more acrobatic and for the US and the Germans more Boom and Zoom tatics when tactics make it possible.

If we're talking about QC I think there are two straight choices for AI aircraft. Bomber & Fighter. I don't know if the category in the DP file might affect this but missions are about the best you will get the AI aircraft to perform in Single Player. If you want realism I think most people would recommend fighting against real opponents in Multiplayer.
 
...

Founder & Sole Member - Grumpy's Over the Hill Club for Veteran Virtual Aviators
Member of the Fox Four Group

Need help? Try Grumpy's Lair

My photo gallery
Back to top 
IP Logged
 
Pages: 1 
Send Topic Print
‹ Previous Topic | Next Topic ›
  « Home ‹ Board Top of this page

Simviation Forum » Powered by YaBB 2.5 AE!
YaBB Forum Software © 2000-2010. All Rights Reserved.

Valid RSS Valid XHTML Valid CSS Powered by Perl Source Forge