Simviation Forum - Asian Aircraft

Dec 28^th, 2005 at 3:12pm

Ijineda Offline
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Europeans got Airbus, Fokker, Dornier, EADS etc...Americans have Boeing, Lockheed, Fairchild, Russians Antonov, Tupolev. But what with China? Japan? Indonesia? I dont know any east-asian aircraft manufacturer; china did build a few airbus in licence, but no chinese airline bought them, they still rely to "made in europe". whats wrong over there?

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Reply #1 - Dec 28^th, 2005 at 3:26pm

Nexus Offline
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If were talking modern commercial aviation, I'd like to change that list abit

North America has: Boeing, Bombardier (CRJ)
Europe has: Airbus(owned by EADS, and BAe Systems), and ATR.

It's very expensive found a company in general, let alone an aircraft manufactorer. Sure the labour is much cheaper in lets say Indonesia. But do they have the competence to run it? That's a good question. Also you have to consider if there's a need and demand for yet another major player?

I don't think it's a coincidence that the most dominant aircraft builders are located in the "western" world. That's why it's so nice to have Embraer

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Reply #2 - Dec 28^th, 2005 at 3:37pm

Ijineda Offline
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Ok but Japan is part of the western world and they surely have the technological know how. indonesia consists of many islands so it is an ideal place to sell aircraft. the geographical position of japan is better than europes or the us when it comes to provide spare parts and maintainance - it would be a lot cheaper than getting this from a company thousands of miles away. so I think there would be enough space on the market for another manufacturer in the east asian sphere, mainly japan or china, and I dont get it why this didnt happen until now.

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Reply #3 - Dec 28^th, 2005 at 3:37pm

RitterKreuz Offline
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you have the Honda-Jet - from Japan i presume Wink

http://www.airventure.org/2005/news/050622_honda.html

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Reply #4 - Dec 28^th, 2005 at 4:00pm

Hagar Offline
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Don't underestimate the capabilities of the Asian manufacturers. Japan's aviation industry suffered a setback following restrictions placed on it after WWII but now several well-known companies are combined into two larger corporations, Fuji Heavy Industries & Mitsubushi Heavy industries, not unlike what happened to the British aviation industry during the 1960s. The Chinese aviation industry is growing & already manufactures several home designed types & others under licence. As aircraft become more complex & expensive to develop the aviation industry becomes more global & companies based in both China & Japan manufacture parts under subcontract to foreign companies including Boeing.

Quote:

Examples of AVIC I enterprises include Chengdu Aircraft Company, Xian Aircraft Company, Nanchang Aircraft Company, Shenyang Aircraft Company and their National Trade Bureau. Parts for Boeing jetliners and other non-Chinese aircraft are made at these facilities. Y-7 and military aircraft are also under the responsibility of AVIC I. AVIC I & II each hold 50% of CATIC (China National Aero-Technology Import & Export Corporation) shares.

http://www.globalsecurity.org//military/world/china/avic.htm

PS. The Japanese invented the idea of Quality Assurance but in trying to follow their example the Western nations got it wrong. Quote:

"The Japanese search for quality in manufacturing is unending because, no matter how good something is, there is always the possibility of doing it better. But the Western habit of critical thinking means that first we must find faults and then seek to put them right, so anything without faults is impossible to improve."

Japanese manufacturers now produce the most reliable cars & motorcycles in the world.

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Reply #5 - Dec 28^th, 2005 at 4:19pm

Nexus Offline
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Asian's have always been more cutting edge when it comes to military aviation. But not so in Commercial.

But I guess that may be subject to change Tongue

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Reply #6 - Dec 28^th, 2005 at 5:25pm

elite marksman Offline
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The Chinese haven't. I was reading "The 150 Worst Aircraft", and the Chinese built the J-8 I think, based off Russia's MiG-21.After many delays they ended up with a state of art 1950's aircraft...

in the 1980s

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Reply #7 - Dec 28^th, 2005 at 5:29pm

Souichiro Ex Member

Well there is Fuji with the T-7 and the F-1

China does have its own industry

Shenyang builds their own models too now I believe...

I somewhat remember that Japan was to build a own plane based on the F-16 but that project failed... ( not the Lavi!)

Of course you have Israel who has one of the most if not THE most innovative defence industry. certainly the most adaptive!

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Reply #8 - Dec 28^th, 2005 at 5:37pm

Hagar Offline
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Quote:

in the 1980s

That might have been so - in the 1980s. The Japanese made rotten cars back then too.

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Reply #9 - Dec 28^th, 2005 at 5:50pm

Ivan Offline
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OK civil ones only?
East Asia
- Indonesia has IPTN (cooperating with CASA)
- China has Nanchang (License built Yak with minor mods) and some factory that builds upgraded An-24
- Japan has mitshibutsi (same one as your car) and Fuji (same one as your camera)

West Asia
HESA (Iran. An-140)
IAI (Israel. MiG-21, Mirage and F-16 upgrades for anyone that has the money)
Hinduja AKA HAL (India. Helicopters and various light aircraft for defense use)

Russian planes: IL-76 (all standard length ones), Tu-154 and Il-62, Tu-134 and An-24RV&&&&AI flightplans and repaints can be found here

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Reply #10 - Dec 28^th, 2005 at 11:43pm

Bubblehead Offline
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I don't believe it's just a question of technology. There's more to aircraft manufacturing than meets the eye. Countries with high tech capabilities I believe at this time that the aircaraft market environment is not yet ideal for them to join the competition. Besides there seem to be a glut on the availability of aircraft at present. By the way, is the Russian Antonov in competition with Boeing as well as Airbus?

Bubblehead

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Reply #11 - Dec 29^th, 2005 at 2:31am

Ivan Offline
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No, I'm NOT Russian, I
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Antonov is niche market stuff: mid-size regional jets (An-148 is more like BAe146), turboprops (An-140) and large cargo (An-124)

Russian planes: IL-76 (all standard length ones), Tu-154 and Il-62, Tu-134 and An-24RV&&&&AI flightplans and repaints can be found here

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Reply #12 - Dec 29^th, 2005 at 11:25am

Bubblehead Offline
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Ivan:

Wouldn't the AN 225 possibly surpass the Boeing 747-800 and the Airbus 380 for the money? Which brings up another subject? I've heard about Russian superiority aircraft. How are they doing marketing their Migs and SUs?

Bubblehead

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Reply #13 - Dec 29^th, 2005 at 12:21pm

Ivan Offline
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No, I'm NOT Russian, I
only like Russian aircraft
The netherlands

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Posts: 6058

Quote:

Ivan:

Wouldn't the AN 225 possibly surpass the Boeing 747-800 and the Airbus 380 for the money? Which brings up another subject? I've heard about Russian superiority aircraft. How are they doing marketing their Migs and SUs?

Bubblehead

An-255 is outsized loads only. It has more effectively useable cargo space than the A380 and 747-800 only because there is no real passenger deck (actually they use the space created by extending the cockpit floor to the wing spar as passenger area). You can fit complete refinery towers in it if you need to.

Only point against it is that it needs a crew of 6 minimum (pilot, navigator, 2x flight engineer and two loadmasters) to operate legally (An-124 needs 5, one loadmaster less), and that the certification is somewhere beteeen experimental and production.

About the fighters
MiG is still done by Rosvoorouzhenie, but interest is dropping, even though Malaysia bought a few fresh-off-the-line MiG-29 with some minor improvements. Sukhoi is the main producer now, especially after what the USAF pulled off in the training against India.

Sukhoi is allowed some freedom in the sales stuff (cockpit outfitting on customer demands), and usually goes for license production as that gives them a more stable cashflow. Package deals are still done by Rosvoorouzhenie, as they usually include missiles and training stuff which Sukhoi is not allowed to do.

Russian planes: IL-76 (all standard length ones), Tu-154 and Il-62, Tu-134 and An-24RV&&&&AI flightplans and repaints can be found here

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