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Yet, another WWII question (Read 887 times)
Dec 20th, 2005 at 10:27am

dcunning30   Offline
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I think this may be quite easy or quite hard, I'm not shure which it will be.


How did the Japanese aid the allies in the preparation of the Normandy landings?
 

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Reply #1 - Dec 20th, 2005 at 1:46pm

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Hmm..
no idea on this one..
 

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Reply #2 - Dec 20th, 2005 at 2:26pm

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Was it by having really naff codes that we could read easily? Grin
 

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Reply #3 - Dec 20th, 2005 at 3:00pm

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Quote:
Was it by having really naff codes that we could read easily? Grin



That sounds like a guess.  If it was, it was a really good guess.  By the time of planning for operation Overlord, the Japanese JN-25 code had been broken and was routinely read.  However the Japanese  never knew that, although some lower-level officers suspected JN-25 was cracked after the Yamamoto ambush, but the powers-to-be dismissed that notion.

Anyway, the Germans were sharing with the Japanese Embassy in Berlin it's disposition of defenses along the French/Belgium coast to defend against an allied invasion.  And the Japanese Embassy was dutifully  sending to Tokyo that information.  And the allies were eagerly reading those messages.
 

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Reply #4 - Dec 20th, 2005 at 3:03pm

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LOL Mark's not as silly as he makes out. Well, not quite as silly anyway. Tongue Cheesy
 

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Reply #5 - Dec 20th, 2005 at 6:24pm
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Ah dang! I knew the answer to this one! I remember reading about it in The Wotan Mission by Leo Kessler (Charles Whiting). They had a big submarine and helped with supplies and codes!



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Reply #6 - Dec 21st, 2005 at 8:33am

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Quote:
That sounds like a guess.  If it was, it was a really good guess.  By the time of planning for operation Overlord, the Japanese JN-25 code had been broken and was routinely read.  However the Japanese  never knew that, although some lower-level officers suspected JN-25 was cracked after the Yamamoto ambush, but the powers-to-be dismissed that notion.

Anyway, the Germans were sharing with the Japanese Embassy in Berlin it's disposition of defenses along the French/Belgium coast to defend against an allied invasion.  And the Japanese Embassy was dutifully  sending to Tokyo that information.  And the allies were eagerly reading those messages.

I am somewhat sceptical of this as by 1944 the British code breakers at Bletchly Park were reading German signals almost quicker than the Germans themselves. This along with the fact that almost all the German spies in England were working for the British, the actions of SOE and the huge amount of work done to make the the Calais coast seem like the likely spot makes me extremely dubious that the British highcommand had to get their infomation from Japan.
 

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Reply #7 - Dec 21st, 2005 at 8:51am

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I am somewhat sceptical of this as by 1944 the British code breakers at Bletchly Park were reading German signals almost quicker than the Germans themselves.

Just to point out that not all the codebreakers at Bletchley Park were British by any means. At its peak it was staffed by thousands of people from all walks of life & many different nationalities. There was a Japanese decoding section at Bletchley staffed by a large proportion of American codebreakers. Due to the large number of characters in the ordinary written language I've always thought that decoding Japanese messages must have been far more difficult than German or any other European language. Come to that I could never visualise a standard Japanese typewriter or keyboard.

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makes me extremely dubious that the British highcommand had to get their infomation from Japan.

The D-Day Invasion of Normandy in 1944 was a combined Allied operation planned by American & British military experts with an American general in overall command. Every piece of intelligence would have been vital to its success wherever it came from.
 

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Reply #8 - Dec 21st, 2005 at 9:00am

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Quote:
Due to the large number of characters in the ordibary written language I've always thought that decoding Japanese messages must have been far more difficult than German or any other European language. Come to that I could never visualise a standard Japanese typewriter or keyboard.


that actually sounds like a good research project.

a novel i once read was based on a drowned japanese sailor was found drifting somewhere around the admirality islands in '39 or '40
the code book he carried in a pouch enabling the american codebreakers to build the purple machine.

anyone knows if that was based on fact?
 

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Reply #9 - Dec 21st, 2005 at 9:17am

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Quote:
a novel i once read was based on a drowned japanese sailor was found drifting somewhere around the admirality islands in '39 or '40
the code book he carried in a pouch enabling the american codebreakers to build the purple machine.

anyone knows if that was based on fact?

I don't know the 'purple machine' you refer to but this might be similar to the Enigma codes. The Allies already had a working example of the machine at Bletchley Park by 1940 but this wasn't much use without the codes. These were changed every day & had to be planned in advance so both the sender & receiver could use the correct daily code without which the coded message could not be deciphered by anyone except the person who sent it. This is where those codebooks come into it as the Enigma machine itself was automatic. I got most of my knowledge on this subject from a recent visit & guided tour of the once top secret 'Station X' codebreaking establishment at Bletchley Park where most of this work was done throughout WWII. http://www.bletchleypark.org.uk/
 

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Reply #10 - Dec 21st, 2005 at 9:28am

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I don't know the 'purple machine' you refer to but this might be similar to the Enigma codes. The Allies already had a working example of the machine at Bletchley Park by 1940 but this wasn't much use without the codes. These were changed every day & had to be planned in advance so both the sender & receiver could use the apporopriate code. This is where those codebooks come into it as the Enigma machine itself was automatic. I got most of my knowledge on this subject from a recent visit & guided tour of the once top secret 'Station X' codebreaking establishment at Bletchley Park where most of this work was done throughout WWII.



a description of the purple machine and the code can be found here:
http://mad.home.cern.ch/frode/crypto/simula/purple/

 

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Reply #11 - Dec 21st, 2005 at 9:38am

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a description of the purple machine and the code can be found here:
http://mad.home.cern.ch/frode/crypto/simula/purple/

Interesting. At first sight it has certain similarities to the Enigma machine but the principle it works on is not quite as easily understood, not by me anyway. The Enigma machine is beautiful in its simplicity & also very effective. I'm no cipher expert & have enough problems doing a crossword myself. Wink
 

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Reply #12 - Dec 21st, 2005 at 10:05am

myshelf   Offline
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well, the enigma code had severall flaws, some from the layout of the machines, some from operation procedures.

additionally, there were some big mistakes made, like "the message without L", giving the codebreakers a helping hand in breaking the enigma code.

also, the prinziple of the enigma machine was widely known, as civilian variations were manufactured in sweden and in use for encryption of buisness telegrams.
the only operational difference was the wiring of the rotors.

now for the japanese purple code the obstacles was not only the language barrier, but the use of a completely different alphabet.
the code itself was somewhat weaker, even if the theoretical numbers indicated a stronger encryption.


 

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Reply #13 - Dec 21st, 2005 at 10:07am

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but yes, the basic principle of all the cryptographic gear used at the time was the same.
 

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Reply #14 - Dec 21st, 2005 at 10:20am

dcunning30   Offline
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Quote:
I am somewhat sceptical of this as by 1944 the British code breakers at Bletchly Park were reading German signals almost quicker than the Germans themselves.



You're free to be sceptical, but scepticism doesn't change the facts.  I'm aware that the folks at Bletchly park were very good at their business of reading German codes, but that doesn't mean the Japanese weren't sending their info to Tokyo and the allies weren't reading those messages.
 

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Reply #15 - Dec 21st, 2005 at 10:33am

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I'm aware that the folks at Bletchly park were very good at their business of reading German codes, but that doesn't mean the Japanese weren't sending their info to Tokyo and the allies weren't reading those messages.

I don't know the facts in this specific case as I'd not heard of it before but it's quite likely that those messages you refer to were passed direct to the Japanese section at Bletchley Park for deciphering. As I pointed out earlier, this included a large American contingent. I only discovered this during my recent visit as it was never common knowledge. Everything done at Bletchley during WWII was classified as Top Secret & some still is today. Lack of knowledge of what was actually achieved there (like the development of the first electronic computer) has led to many misconceptions since the war. All equipment & documents were destroyed soon after the end of WWII to prevent it falling into the hands of a potential enemy. I don't expect this is unique by any means & there are some things that will never be revealed, at least during my lifetime.
 

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Reply #16 - Dec 21st, 2005 at 10:47am

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Quote:
You're free to be sceptical, but scepticism doesn't change the facts.  I'm aware that the folks at Bletchly park were very good at their business of reading German codes, but that doesn't mean the Japanese weren't sending their info to Tokyo and the allies weren't reading those messages.

I'm not saying that isn't the case. What I'm saying is that the chances are that the infomation didn't have to come from Tokyo and any that did would have been used to support what had already come from deciphered German transmissions.

It is true that there was an american team at Bletchley Park. This was no doubt a move to encourage the allies to share their intelligence as the British could easily have kept what they were doing to themselves.
 

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Reply #17 - Dec 21st, 2005 at 11:04am

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It is true that there was an american team at Bletchley Park. This was no doubt a move to encourage the allies to share their intelligence as the British could easily have kept what they were doing to themselves.

Woody. I should remind you that this was a combined operation. The invasion & liberation of Europe would have been impossible without the considerable contribution of American forces & equipment and I imagine intelligence. It's quite natural that any intelligence would be passed on to the appropriate area without worrying if this happened to be American or British or even Russian if affected them. It's also quite likely that those Japanese messages were deciphered at Bletchley Park as this was in the area involved & also the centre of Allied codebreaking throughout WWII. The intelligence belonged to the Allied effort & not one country & I suspect it was all passed through the same chain of command to whoever was responsible for distributing it.

I realise that inter-service rivalry caused a lot of problems during WWII & have no doubt this also applied to international cooperation but it would have been so much easier without these petty squabbles. We were all on the same side. Roll Eyes
 

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Reply #18 - Dec 21st, 2005 at 11:16am

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Woody. I should remind you that this was a combined operation. The invasion & liberation of Europe would have been impossible without the considerable contribution of American forces & equipment and I imagine intelligence. It's quite natural that any intelligence would be passed on to the appropriate area without worrying if this happened to be American or British. It's also quite likely that those Japanese messages were deciphered at Bletchley Park as this was in the area involved & also the centre of Allied codebreaking throughout WWII.

I realise that inter-service rivalry caused a lot of problems during WWII & have no doubt this also applied to international cooperation but it would have been so much easier without these petty squabbles. We were all on the same side. Roll Eyes

I am fully aware of that but countries are bound to keep secrets from their allies even in a war that depends on full cooperation.  All I was saying was that the Americans came to Bletchley partle because they wanted in on the act and also as a gesture of trust as their efforts at breaking the German codes hadn't amounted to nearly as much success as the British.
 

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Reply #19 - Dec 21st, 2005 at 11:30am

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I am fully aware of that but countries are bound to keep secrets from their allies even in a war that depends on full cooperation.  All I was saying was that the Americans came to Bletchley partle because they wanted in on the act and also as a gesture of trust as their efforts at breaking the German codes hadn't amounted to nearly as much success as the British.

There were two very good reasons the Americans came to Bletchley Park. First the establishment was already set up with the most advanced equipment available for deciphering coded messages. There were probably a lot more Japanese speakers in America (including Japanese Americans) than in Britain or anywhere except Japan. This would obviously be a big advantage in deciphering Japanese codes as they would not have to learn a very complex & difficult language in order to understand what they were doing. The establishment was not set up on a national basis & people from many different nationalities worked alongside each other to achieve a common aim. The defeat of the enemy. This was a great achievement & fine example of international cooperation.
 

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Reply #20 - Dec 21st, 2005 at 11:43am

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just as a reminder:

the actual breakthrough in breaking the enigma code came from the polish, who were first evacuated to france after the war broke out, and then on to england.

they brought with them the prototype of the "bomba", the machine that was reproduced many times and stationed in bletchley park to be used to break the daily changing keys.
 

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Reply #21 - Dec 21st, 2005 at 11:51am

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Quote:
just as a reminder:

the actual breakthrough in breaking the enigma code came from the polish, who were first evacuated to france after the war broke out, and then on to england.

they brought with them the prototype of the "bomba", the machine that was reproduced many times and stationed in bletchley park to be used to break the daily changing keys.

Indeed & this is often forgotten or not realised.

It's also not commonly known that the British & other governments were offered the Enigma machine soon after it was first invented but turned it down as they saw no practical use for it. It was originally intended for commercial use against industrial espionage & available to any large company. Only the Germans took advantage of it for military use.
 

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