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A Harder WWII Question - I think... (Read 1302 times)
Reply #15 - Dec 12th, 2005 at 10:51am

dcunning30   Offline
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Hagar,

the contents of the above post is a huge hint.
 

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Reply #16 - Dec 12th, 2005 at 11:04am

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Quote:
Hagar,

the contents of the above post is a huge hint.

Thanks but I'm still none the wiser. I'll have to admit defeat. Wink
 

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Reply #17 - Dec 12th, 2005 at 12:25pm

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On March 31, 1944, two Japanese flying boats crashed into the sea off the Philippines, killing Yamamoto's successor, Admiral Koga.  A passenger who survived was Vice Admiral Fukudome.  Philippine guerrillas captured Fukudome.  Fukudome posessed a document titled Operation Z, or the Z Plan.  It was the Japanese plan for the defense of the Marianas Islands.

The Japanese made life very difficult and short for the Philippino people until Fukudome was returned back to them.  But the guerrillas realized the importance of that document, so it was smuggled out of the Philippines and was translated by Nisei.

The Japanese were concerned about the missing documents, so Koga's successor, Admiral Toyota made minor changes and renamed it as Operation A-Go.  One significant culmination of this battle plan, that the Allies learned about from the recovered documents led to what we know as The Great Marianas Turkey Shoot.

......and as Paul Harvey said, "and now you know the rest of the story"
 

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Reply #18 - Dec 12th, 2005 at 12:54pm

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The Great Marianas Turkey Shoot.

That would explain it. My knowledge of the war in the Pacific is hazy at best.
 

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Reply #19 - Dec 14th, 2005 at 3:07am

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I'm glad he said "arguably" as this sort of question is incredibly subjective.
As has already been suggested the enigma codes would be "arguably" more important as the finding of them had a bigger influence on WW2, as a whole, rather than just one battle. Didn't the Japanese use a form of the enigma machine? and wern't their messages being decoded too?
 

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Reply #20 - Dec 14th, 2005 at 3:54am

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Quote:
I'm glad he said "arguably" as this sort of question is incredibly subjective.
As has already been suggested the enigma codes would be "arguably" more important as the finding of them had a bigger influence on WW2, as a whole, rather than just one battle. Didn't the Japanese use a form of the enigma machine? and weren't their messages being decoded too?
They had code -- and it was being deciphered with some guesswork; supposedly, it was a main reason the U.S. admiralty decided that Midway was the next place to catch them en force.
 
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Reply #21 - Dec 14th, 2005 at 4:40am

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Didn't the Japanese use a form of the enigma machine? and wern't their messages being decoded too?

Indeed & there was a Japanese section at Bletchley Park where much of this work was done. At its peak there were 10,000 people working at Station X, as it was known, from all parts of the world & all walks of life. Many of the decipherers in the Japanese section were Americans. I discovered this & many other facts about the top secret work that took place there during WWII & the vital part it played in the outcome of the war. It was so secret that much of this is still classified & some is still being revealed. The place was completely dismantled & everything including the complex electronic deciphering equipment developed there was destroyed soon after the end of WWII to prevent it falling into the hands of a potential enemy. It's hard to believe now but many of the people that worked there took their secrets to the grave & never revealed what they actually did there even to their spouses or close family.

It's a very interesting place for a visit if you get the chance & set in beautiful surroundings. http://www.bletchleypark.org.uk/ Near Milton Keynes so it's not diffcullt to find.
 

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Reply #22 - Dec 14th, 2005 at 9:55am

dcunning30   Offline
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Quote:
I'm glad he said "arguably" as this sort of question is incredibly subjective.
As has already been suggested the enigma codes would be "arguably" more important as the finding of them had a bigger influence on WW2, as a whole, rather than just one battle. Didn't the Japanese use a form of the enigma machine? and wern't their messages being decoded too?


But the difference, that I pointed out earler is the enigma machine allowed the allies to decode ciphers.  I was specifically referring to a captured document.  Ciphers were encoded radio traffic that went on all the time.  All combattants read each other's radio traffic and proceeded to attempt to decode the encoded traffic.  Little traffic was sent in the clear, but it did happen, most famously the "TURKEY TROTS TO WATER" traffic.  Technically, the enigma machine cannot be construed as a captured document.  It was a captured *decoder*.
 

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Reply #23 - Dec 14th, 2005 at 10:00am

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And another point, radio traffic amounted to operational info, which the codebreakers and analysts attempt to understand to put together strategic pictures of the enemy's intentions.  The Z Plan was a strategic document.  There's a big difference between the two.
 

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Reply #24 - Dec 14th, 2005 at 10:05am

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Technically, the enigma machine cannot be construed as a captured document.  It was a captured *decoder*.

No but as I pointed out earlier the codebooks that were captured with the Enigma machines were documents & possibly more important than the machines themselves. The Allies already had working examples of the Enigma machine before these codebooks were captured intact. These gave the vital codes for use by the German Navy (U-Boats) over the next few months. These were changed every day & without them it would have been almost impossible to decipher coded messages in time to act on any information contained in them. This discovery was the beginning of the end of the "U-Boat" menace. If it had not been defeated the war in Europe would possibly have been very different. Without Britain as a base (a huge aircraft carrier) the Normandy Invasion would have been impossible.
 

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Reply #25 - Dec 14th, 2005 at 10:11am

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Hagar,

point well made.
 

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Reply #26 - Dec 14th, 2005 at 10:12am

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Narrowing down the comparisons between the German plan captured in Belgium early on, and the capture of the Z-plan, it's interesting to note the different reactions

Early on, the command with the German plans chose to ignore the plans, and did not act on them.  That inaction definitely contributed to the fall of Western Europe in 1940.  Had the troop dispositions been changed, would the Germans have had the same success?  Arguably yes, but with more struggle, and maybe not as complete.  Conceivably, there would have been no Battle of Britan, and a less "intrusive" US intervention in the European War....

By acting on the Z-plan, what was basically the last Japanese major naval offensive was not merely blunted but stopped dead.
 

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Reply #27 - Dec 14th, 2005 at 10:26am

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Narrowing down the comparisons between the German plan captured in Belgium early on, and the capture of the Z-plan, it's interesting to note the different reactions

Early on, the command with the German plans chose to ignore the plans, and did not act on them.  That inaction definitely contributed to the fall of Western Europe in 1940.  Had the troop dispositions been changed, would the Germans have had the same success?  Arguably yes, but with more struggle, and maybe not as complete.  Conceivably, there would have been no Battle of Britan, and a less "intrusive" US intervention in the European War....

By acting on the Z-plan, what was basically the last Japanese major naval offensive was not merely blunted but stopped dead.

A very interesting 'what if?" scenario. There are many other examples & towards the end of WWII counter-espionage was so rampant that it must have been very difficult to know quite what to to believe. I'm told that the German spy network in Britain was uncovered very early on & the spies were persuaded to cooperate by transmitting bogus information to their 'spymasters' throughout the war. In order for them to be believed some of the information in these messages had to be correct but it was apparently a very successful operation & possibly saved many lives. For it to work the actual spies had to transmit these messages themselves as each Morse code operator apparently has their own recognisable "signature" & any other operator would soon have been detected.

I seem to recall that the Germans recovered the plans of the Arnhem disaster intact from a briefcase left behind in one of the gliders but believed them to be a plant. They found it as difficult to believe as me that a senior officer would carry the detailed plans with him on the actual operation.
 

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Reply #28 - Dec 14th, 2005 at 12:10pm

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Quote:
They found it as difficult to believe as me that a senior officer would carry the detailed plans with him on the actual operation.


Oh it is definately possible.  That nimrod, Fukudome, who caused Plan Z to fall into Allied hands, later on during an air battle over a Japanese base, I believe on Formosa (Taiwan), Fukudome looked up at the flaming and falling planes and exclaimed "Well done, well done", not realizing the majority of flaming and falling planes were Japanese.
 

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Reply #29 - Dec 20th, 2005 at 1:17am
Flt.Lt.Andrew   Ex Member

 
Well he was a bit Fuked in his dome!



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