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A new Band of Brothers series (Read 1649 times)
Dec 2nd, 2005 at 2:40pm

dcunning30   Offline
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Yup! ....based on fighting in the Pacific.  I can't wait!

Enjoy!

http://www.the-pacific-war.com/
 

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Reply #1 - Dec 2nd, 2005 at 4:48pm
Heretic   Ex Member

 
If it's gonna be as crappy as the "Europe" version, I'm less than interested. Roll Eyes
 
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Reply #2 - Dec 2nd, 2005 at 4:50pm

Craig.   Offline
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I could never get into the series myself.
 
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Reply #3 - Dec 2nd, 2005 at 5:02pm

dcunning30   Offline
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I liked Band of Brothers, especially knowing it's a true story.  I guess we're so used to Hollywood spicing up a story to keep the audience's interest that reality seems dull by comparison.
 

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Reply #4 - Dec 2nd, 2005 at 5:04pm

Craig.   Offline
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I liked Band of Brothers, especially knowing it's a true story.  I guess we're so used to Hollywood spicing up a story to keep the audience's interest that reality seems dull by comparison.

Actually I will generally not watch Hollywood movies of true stories for the simple fact they turn it into something it isn't.
 
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Reply #5 - Dec 2nd, 2005 at 5:09pm

dcunning30   Offline
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Actually I will generally not watch Hollywood movies of true stories for the simple fact they turn it into something it isn't.


Well, what do you watch for true stories?
 

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Reply #6 - Dec 2nd, 2005 at 5:12pm
Heretic   Ex Member

 
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Well, what do you watch for true stories?


Classical british war movies or documentations.
Both treat the enemy with respect and don't kick him with feet, like in Hollywood productions.
 
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Reply #7 - Dec 2nd, 2005 at 5:15pm

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Quote:
Classical british war movies or documentations.
Both treat the enemy with respect and don't kick him with feet, like in Hollywood productions.

And they dont have  Mel gibson or bruce Willis defeating the whole German military with an uzi Roll Eyes Smiley
Definatly alot of the old British war movies are worth watching. Theres some good movies on the dambusters raid. Another I cant remember the name now, i think it was 633 sqdrn? about a squad of Mossie who were tasked to destroy I believe a U-boat facility by destroying a cliff above it.
 
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Reply #8 - Dec 2nd, 2005 at 5:21pm
Heretic   Ex Member

 
Battle of Britain!

The best examples for treating both sides equally.
 
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Reply #9 - Dec 2nd, 2005 at 5:34pm

dcunning30   Offline
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Battle of Britain!

The best examples for treating both sides equally.




When you say equally do you mean accurately, or do you mean spend as much time telling both sides of the story?

I seen this one British movie about British prisoners of war in a Japanese camp that also included Keifer Sutherland in a less than flattering role of an American who looked out for only himself.  I thought the premise the storyteller had was more to do with present-day political sensabilities than the reality of the southeast asian jungles in 1942.

I felt like the storytelling was more about moralizing than anything.
 

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Reply #10 - Dec 2nd, 2005 at 5:42pm

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Battle of Britain sure is a great movie! Smiley
 

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Reply #11 - Dec 2nd, 2005 at 5:49pm

dcunning30   Offline
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Battle of Britain sure is a great movie! Smiley



It certainly is, however I remember being in a discussion about the Battle of Britain some time ago, and another poster who definately was more read-up on the subject than me pointed out even the movie, Battle of Britain had inaccuracies.  In fairness, you sometimes have to make compromizes when you have just 2 hours to tell a story.

But my question is are we discussing historical accuracies in the storytelling or spending as much time telling the story from the perspective of both sides of the conflict?
 

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Reply #12 - Dec 2nd, 2005 at 6:28pm

C   Offline
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Band of Brothers has to rank as one of the best produced TV series ever made. Reading the book by the late Stephen Ambrose, it appeared very true to fact, and was excellently produced, a change from many "Hollywood" productions. Then again, it was made on an airfield 25 miles north of London (home of the DH Mosquito, another of Björn's favourites!)
 
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Reply #13 - Dec 2nd, 2005 at 7:47pm

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I love Band of Brothers and will surely buy this when it comes out.
 
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Reply #14 - Dec 3rd, 2005 at 12:30am

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I don't understand the shclepping of BOB in with the rest of the Hollywood movies.  Have you guys actually watched it? (addressing Craig and Bjorn here)  It is, quite simply, one of the greatest war series' ever made.  I find it hard to believe you've viewed it if you're grouping it with Mel Gibson and Bruce Willis movies, because honestly that's kind of ignorant.  The series went out of it's way to SEPARATE itself from the hollywood production norm.

I look forward to the new series Wink
 
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Reply #15 - Dec 3rd, 2005 at 12:37am

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The filmography of Band of Brothers is definately superb.

The series is true to the book and the story.  I haven't found the storylines to be boring, and I think that the series explores some aspects of leadership, both good and bad
 

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Reply #16 - Dec 3rd, 2005 at 1:47am

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I don't understand the shclepping of BOB in with the rest of the Hollywood movies.  Have you guys actually watched it? (addressing Craig and Bjorn here)  It is, quite simply, one of the greatest war series' ever made.  I find it hard to believe you've viewed it if you're grouping it with Mel Gibson and Bruce Willis movies, because honestly that's kind of ignorant.  The series went out of it's way to SEPARATE itself from the hollywood production norm.

I look forward to the new series Wink

Where did I once say I grouped it with hollywood movies? re-read carefully what I wrote. I said I didn't like it. It was dcunning who brought up the hollywood factor as a completly seperate thing and I said I tried to avoid those sorts of things.
 
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Reply #17 - Dec 3rd, 2005 at 6:48am

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What Charlie says is true. Grin

All the scenes in the "Ardenne" were filmed in a hanger with a forest planted in it with computer animated snow falling. Anyone notice that the snow never actually settled on anyone/thing? Grin
 

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Reply #18 - Dec 3rd, 2005 at 6:51am

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...and half the cast was British... Grin

Craig mentioned "633 Squadron" - a good film in that its (fictitious) story was quite accurate to how an operation could have worked (it actually took several ideas from several real raids). However, the special effects dpartment were no more than vandals IMO, destroying no less than three DH Mosquitos during filming...
 
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Reply #19 - Dec 3rd, 2005 at 7:01am

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...and half the cast was British... Grin


I did always like the bit where all the americans were crouching on a riverbank looking out for the British paratroops, and first the commander steps out then gives a signal then a great long line of men step out of the hedge right in front of them. Grin
 

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Reply #20 - Dec 3rd, 2005 at 7:13am

C   Offline
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The scene I remember most is probably the Bastogne bombing scene as I was only a mile or so away when they filmed it. It really did sound like an air raid going on at 10 at night!
 
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Reply #21 - Dec 3rd, 2005 at 10:52am

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Quote:
Classical british war movies or documentations. 
Both treat the enemy with respect and don't kick him with feet, like in Hollywood productions.


Like Dambusters?

*PHILOSOPHICAL TIME*

Yea Bjorn, sure, us Brits fought against the Germans in WWII, but in the end, we are all people, living on one world, so it's nice to show a bit of respect to one another.

Cheers Wink
 

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Reply #22 - Dec 3rd, 2005 at 6:24pm
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Have you guys actually watched it? (addressing Craig and Bjorn here) 


Only one episode. And I've had to throw up as they showed another stupid full-front-storm-everything-without-thinking-attack by the germans which was repelled by five hero-like american soldiers.

Hollywood is completely dead for me since then. Started right with "Saving Pvt. Ryan".
 
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Reply #23 - Dec 4th, 2005 at 7:35am

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I don't understand the shclepping of BOB in with the rest of the Hollywood movies.  Have you guys actually watched it? (addressing Craig and Bjorn here)

When I first saw this I thought you meant BoB which is commonly used for Battle of Britain, either the actual event or the famous film made of it back in the 1960s. If also used for Band of Brothers this could cause confusion.

I saw the film Battle of Britain soon after it was released & thought it exceptionally well-made compared with the average Hollywood product. I knew some of the people responsible for it & they went to a great deal of trouble to make it as authentic as possible & tell the story fairly from both sides. Despite this & like most feature films it does contain inaccuracies, several of which I believe are now considered by most people to be the truth. This is not uncommon for most feature films made about historical events. The most outstanding film I've ever seen about WWII is Das Boot & I don't think this will ever be bettered.

I watched Band of Brothers & thought it very well made & well acted. It gave me an insight into what many GIs must have gone through without the usual exaggeration & distortion of the truth which is all I ask from any film.
 

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Reply #24 - Dec 4th, 2005 at 8:12am

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Have you guys actually watched it? (addressing Craig and Bjorn here)   

Yup and like I said, I just couldn't get into it.
 
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Reply #25 - Dec 5th, 2005 at 11:58am

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Quote:
Only one episode. And I've had to throw up as they showed another stupid full-front-storm-everything-without-thinking-attack by the germans which was repelled by five hero-like american soldiers.


Unfortunately, that has happened.  Usually by conscript soldiers.  I was watching Firefight on History Channel, and a vet said he was in an engagement during the "D-Day breakout" where he encountered just such a scenario.  He was amazed that the Germans did just such a full-on frontal attack where his unit mowed them down.  Then he added after that attack, a different and appearantly, more experienced unit mounted a more intellegent assault on his unit.
 

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Reply #26 - Dec 5th, 2005 at 12:55pm

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another stupid full-front-storm-everything-without-thinking-attack

This was a common occurence during the trench warfare of WWI. It was more often the British soldiers who suffered the most, mown down by a few well-placed German machine guns. Literally thousands of them died on these assaults, often in a matter of minutes. Knowing how history repeats itself it wouldn't surprise me if the same mistakes were repeated in WWII.
 

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Reply #27 - Dec 5th, 2005 at 1:40pm
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Knowing how history repeats itself it wouldn't surprise me if the same mistakes were repeated in WWII.


Maybe by the Russians. But Germans... Undecided
 
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Reply #28 - Dec 5th, 2005 at 2:06pm

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Maybe by the Russians. But Germans... Undecided

You can include the British in that. The RAF never learned anything from years of air combat in WWI & had to start all over again. Roll Eyes
 

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Reply #29 - Dec 5th, 2005 at 2:21pm

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Also, according to my readings, the American Civil War saw many, many ocassions where old tactics of line-em-up-stand-there-and-shoot met new technology of rifled weapons, and you had carnage on a mass-scale.  Stupid commanders ordering stupid tactics is not isolated by any individual country.
 

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Reply #30 - Dec 5th, 2005 at 3:53pm

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You can include the British in that. The RAF never learned anything from years of air combat in WWI & had to start all over again. Roll Eyes


Well, to be fair the Royal Navy and Army did try and shut down the RAF in the years following WWI, and the RAF was mostly confined to "Policing the Empire" and a little bit of Home Defence/Aerobatics/Flying Club...
 
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Reply #31 - Dec 5th, 2005 at 4:26pm

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Well, to be fair the Royal Navy and Army did try and shut down the RAF in the years following WWI, and the RAF was mostly confined to "Policing the Empire" and a little bit of Home Defence/Aerobatics/Flying Club...

Indeed but I feel there was no excuse for the top brass, many of whom had been combat pilots during WWI, insisting on peacetime fighter tactics that were more suited to air displays than combat. They were still insisting on these tactics during the BoB. The more experienced squadron commanders defied orders & followed the Luftwaffe's example, honed by the fighting in Spain but using similar tactics to those learned 20 years earlier during WWI.
 

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Reply #32 - Dec 5th, 2005 at 10:00pm

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Reply #33 - Dec 6th, 2005 at 1:46pm

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Quote:
It was more often the British soldiers who suffered the most, mown down by a few well-placed German machine guns. Literally thousands of them died on these assaults, often in a matter of minutes. Knowing how history repeats itself it wouldn't surprise me if the same mistakes were repeated in WWII.

Everyone suffered like that in the First World War. It's just that offensives such as the Somme and the Battles of Ypres cloud the British view so we miss travisties such as Verdun...

And Bjorn, in all wars, sometimes the only option is a frontal assault. No one has ever mounted one by choice as even the most lowly of generals know a flanking attack will be more successful.
 

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Reply #34 - Dec 7th, 2005 at 6:51am
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And Bjorn, in all wars, sometimes the only option is a frontal assault. No one has ever mounted one by choice as even the most lowly of generals know a flanking attack will be more successful.


But the way it's depicted in Band of Brothers is just ridiculous.
 
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Reply #35 - Dec 7th, 2005 at 9:50am

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But the way it's depicted in Band of Brothers is just ridiculous.

I must have missed that part. I can't comment either way as I didn't watch the whole series. What I saw of it seemed reasonably accurate but I can't comment on that either as I wasn't there at the time..
 

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Reply #36 - Dec 7th, 2005 at 10:28am

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I must have missed that part. I can't comment either way as I didn't watch the whole series. What I saw of it seemed reasonably accurate but I can't comment on that either as I wasn't there at the time..



I agree.  I recall the one episode where the general wanted them to snatch prisoners to stroke his own ego.  Then upon a successful mission, he called for another mission for more ego stroking.  His callousness for needlessly endangering the lives of his men was totally believable.  And Winters told them to get a good night's sleep and he'll file a report that they went across but found no Germans to snatch.

I believe every army has it's Dick Winters, and also has it's share of these morons.
 

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Reply #37 - Dec 7th, 2005 at 11:12am

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I believe every army has it's Dick Winters, and also has it's share of these morons.

The more I learn about it the more I'm appalled at the behaviour of a few very senior officers criticising their own colleagues for their own benefit. This was pure jealousy & spite for the sake of glory & power for themselves with no thought of their country or the men serving under them. There are several instances of this in the RAF during WWII. I'm sure this is not restricted to the one service or the one nationality.
 

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Reply #38 - Dec 7th, 2005 at 11:55am

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I can think of a few scenarios where leaders chose ego over prudence and the concern for their own troops:

Montgomery - Operation Market Garden
Halsey - Battle of Leyte Gulf
Stalin - race to Berlin


....he he he, let the debating begin!   Wink
 

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Reply #39 - Dec 7th, 2005 at 12:11pm

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I can think of a few scenarios where leaders chose ego over prudence and the concern for their own troops:

Montgomery - Operation Market Garden
Halsey - Battle of Leyte Gulf
Stalin - race to Berlin


....he he he, let the debating begin!   Wink

If you wish to debate this further I think it deserves a topic of its own in the History forum.

I can't comment on the others but in Montgomery's defence & whatever else he might have been he had the reputation of putting his men first. They knew this & respected him for it. Market Garden was a daring plan that could have shortened the war & saved many 1,000s of lives on both sides if it had succeeded. The problem was that it was hastily planned & needed the full cooperation of all involved. The supply lines were stretched to the limit & although help was within a few miles they had to stand helplessly by & watch. I know this as my late father-in-law was with XXX Corps & he told me their tanks simply ran out of fuel & could go no further. The weather also played its part which is not unusual in this sort of operation. The D-Day invasion itself had been postponed for a couple of days for the same reasons. This could have easily ruined the whole operation which had taken months, if not years, of careful preparation.
 

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Reply #40 - Dec 7th, 2005 at 12:15pm

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RE: Montgomery, that's where I expected to get a response.  It's debatable, I'm sure he had good intentions, but one wonders how much to play his enormous ego affected his judgement, expecially considering his well-known rivalry with the other enormous ego:  *cough* ol' blood-n-gut's himself, Patton!  Wink
 

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Reply #41 - Dec 7th, 2005 at 12:18pm

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RE: Montgomery, that's where I expected to get a response.  It's debatable, I'm sure he had good intentions, but one wonders how much to play his enormous ego affected his judgement, expecially considering his well-known rivalry with the other enormous ego:  *cough* ol' blood-n-gut's himself, Patton!  Wink

Montgomery was indeed a stuffy character & also very stubborn, Not an easy man to get on with at all. His concern for his men was the main reason he & Patton didn't see eye to eye & that's an understatement.
 

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Reply #42 - Dec 7th, 2005 at 1:51pm

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His concern for his men was the main reason he & Patton didn't see eye to eye & that's an understatement.



I don't understand that.  What would Patton have to do with the men under Montgomery's command?
 

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Reply #43 - Dec 7th, 2005 at 2:18pm

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I don't understand that.  What would Patton have to do with the men under Montgomery's command?

Patton & Montgomery were expected to cooperate & it would obviously have been much better if they'd at least respected each other. I understand that the reverse was true & Patton always accused Montgomery of being too cautious when he wanted him to forge ahead whatever the risks involved as he would have done himself. Monty would have none of it & this was the cause of more disagreements between them. I don't know a great deal about 'Old Blood & Guts' as he was known but from what I've read about him this nickname was not undeserved. I could be quite wrong but get the impression he didn't care as much about his men's welfare as Monty did. It never made any sense to me that two completely opposite personalities with outsized egos who couldn't stand the sight of each other were put in charge of the biggest combined operation in history, or how it managed to succeed despite this.
 

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Reply #44 - Dec 7th, 2005 at 3:17pm

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I just went on a google tour, and I could'nt find anything to cooberate Montgomery and Patton not getting along having to do with a concern for the troops.  On the other hand, I did see text stating Montgomery criticized Eisenhower and accusing his commander of lending his ear to his rival Patton.  That text jives with what I recall having learned in the past.  In fact, Eisenhower almost fired Montgomery for insubordination.
 

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Reply #45 - Dec 7th, 2005 at 3:40pm

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I haven't read anything about this for some time but the mutual dislike between Patton & Monty is well known in this country. It could almost be described as hatred. This might be seen differently in the US & I have to admit to a slightly biased view. This petty rivalry had been going on since the Sicily campaign. I found an article on the subject entitled "The cost of Monty and Patton’s war" which I think means a private war between themselves rather than against the common enemy. http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2092-1733829,00.html

I can't quote anything on their later disagreements after the Normandy invasion offhand but the Falaise Gap springs to mind.
 

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Reply #46 - Dec 7th, 2005 at 4:29pm

dcunning30   Offline
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This petty rivalry had been going on since the Sicily campaign. I found an article on the subject entitled "The cost of Monty and Patton’s war" which I think means a private war between themselves rather than against the common enemy


I agree, and personally, I'm not impressed by either.  To me, the watershed moment for my dislike for Patton was when he slapped a troop and berated him for "merely" having stress due to combat.

Regarding Halsey, I grudingly admire him.  My reservation re: him has to do with him chasing Ozawa's carriers and abandoning his post off Samar.

And I have absolutely no admiration for Stalin.
 

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Reply #47 - Dec 7th, 2005 at 4:33pm

dcunning30   Offline
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BTW, if you're interested in the Battle off Samar, the book, "Last Stand of the Tin Can Sailors" is an excellent read.


Here's come cool pics:

http://www.bosamar.com/combat/combat0.html
 

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Reply #48 - Dec 7th, 2005 at 5:07pm

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I agree, and personally, I'm not impressed by either.

I think there was a lot of political influence from different quarters behind the appointment of both. I always had a great deal of respect for General Eisenhower who must have had a hard time keeping them in check. You mentioned that he threatened Monty with the sack & I believe he also did the same with Patton. I read that Monty didn't think much of Ike's capabilities as a general due to lack of experience in the field but he repected him for his organisational skills which were more important in his position as Supreme Allied Commander. They apparently got on very well considering Monty's prickly nature.

As for Monty's reputation of caring for his men, he might well have done & he undoubtedly inspired the 'Desert Rats' in North Africa who are still loyal to him today. This didn't stop him being completely ruthless with their lives at times & if I recall correctly my father-in-law & his colleagues didn't have the same affection or trust for him. Unfortunately it's to late too ask him to confirm than now as he passed away some years ago. The man they did trust was their immediate commander, Lieutenant General Brian Horrocks. http://www.pen-and-sword.co.uk/cgi-bin/uk/1118.html
Father-in-law was very impressed with Edward Fox's portrayal of him in the film "A Bridge too Far" & said he had captured his character perfectly. He also looked very much like him.

PS. Thanks for the link.
 

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Reply #49 - Dec 7th, 2005 at 5:28pm

dcunning30   Offline
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Yea, Ike did threaten to sack Patton after the slapping incident.  But Patton was so well liked in the press and public opinion back in the states, Ike just dressed him down and left him cooling his heals commanding a pretend army on June 6th.
 

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Reply #50 - Dec 7th, 2005 at 5:38pm

dcunning30   Offline
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The battle off Samar was truly and epic event.  Because of Halsey's irresponsibility, you have a small screen of DD's and DE's going against a formidable surface fleet of BB's CA's and CL's which included none other than the IJN Yamato.  It should have been a totally one sided slaughter.  The planes from the CVE's only had amrament for bombarding shore installations and that's all their pilots were skilled for.  It truly was an amazing event of epic portportions.  Just amazing.

Heck, the Samuel B Roberts was a Destroyer Escort, underpowered, underarmed, intended for antisubmarine duty only.  She charged headlong  against Japanese cruisers and battleships.  Amazing!  And she was ONLY joined by the Johnston and Hoel, both destroyers.  The other DE's and DD's maintained their screens around the CVE's.  So you had 2 destroyers and 1 destroyer escort charging into about a dozen very large Japanese warships.

Once the pilots from the CVE's ran out of ammunition, they began doing dry runs to harass the Japanese ships.

Please forgive the acronyms:

BB - battleship
CA - cruiser
CL - light cruiser
CVE - escort carrier
DD - destroyer
DE - destroyer escort
« Last Edit: Dec 8th, 2005 at 10:13am by dcunning30 »  

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