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A new Band of Brothers series (Read 1647 times)
Reply #30 - Dec 5th, 2005 at 3:53pm

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You can include the British in that. The RAF never learned anything from years of air combat in WWI & had to start all over again. Roll Eyes


Well, to be fair the Royal Navy and Army did try and shut down the RAF in the years following WWI, and the RAF was mostly confined to "Policing the Empire" and a little bit of Home Defence/Aerobatics/Flying Club...
 
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Reply #31 - Dec 5th, 2005 at 4:26pm

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Well, to be fair the Royal Navy and Army did try and shut down the RAF in the years following WWI, and the RAF was mostly confined to "Policing the Empire" and a little bit of Home Defence/Aerobatics/Flying Club...

Indeed but I feel there was no excuse for the top brass, many of whom had been combat pilots during WWI, insisting on peacetime fighter tactics that were more suited to air displays than combat. They were still insisting on these tactics during the BoB. The more experienced squadron commanders defied orders & followed the Luftwaffe's example, honed by the fighting in Spain but using similar tactics to those learned 20 years earlier during WWI.
 

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Reply #32 - Dec 5th, 2005 at 10:00pm

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Reply #33 - Dec 6th, 2005 at 1:46pm

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It was more often the British soldiers who suffered the most, mown down by a few well-placed German machine guns. Literally thousands of them died on these assaults, often in a matter of minutes. Knowing how history repeats itself it wouldn't surprise me if the same mistakes were repeated in WWII.

Everyone suffered like that in the First World War. It's just that offensives such as the Somme and the Battles of Ypres cloud the British view so we miss travisties such as Verdun...

And Bjorn, in all wars, sometimes the only option is a frontal assault. No one has ever mounted one by choice as even the most lowly of generals know a flanking attack will be more successful.
 

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Reply #34 - Dec 7th, 2005 at 6:51am
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And Bjorn, in all wars, sometimes the only option is a frontal assault. No one has ever mounted one by choice as even the most lowly of generals know a flanking attack will be more successful.


But the way it's depicted in Band of Brothers is just ridiculous.
 
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Reply #35 - Dec 7th, 2005 at 9:50am

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But the way it's depicted in Band of Brothers is just ridiculous.

I must have missed that part. I can't comment either way as I didn't watch the whole series. What I saw of it seemed reasonably accurate but I can't comment on that either as I wasn't there at the time..
 

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Reply #36 - Dec 7th, 2005 at 10:28am

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I must have missed that part. I can't comment either way as I didn't watch the whole series. What I saw of it seemed reasonably accurate but I can't comment on that either as I wasn't there at the time..



I agree.  I recall the one episode where the general wanted them to snatch prisoners to stroke his own ego.  Then upon a successful mission, he called for another mission for more ego stroking.  His callousness for needlessly endangering the lives of his men was totally believable.  And Winters told them to get a good night's sleep and he'll file a report that they went across but found no Germans to snatch.

I believe every army has it's Dick Winters, and also has it's share of these morons.
 

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Reply #37 - Dec 7th, 2005 at 11:12am

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I believe every army has it's Dick Winters, and also has it's share of these morons.

The more I learn about it the more I'm appalled at the behaviour of a few very senior officers criticising their own colleagues for their own benefit. This was pure jealousy & spite for the sake of glory & power for themselves with no thought of their country or the men serving under them. There are several instances of this in the RAF during WWII. I'm sure this is not restricted to the one service or the one nationality.
 

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Reply #38 - Dec 7th, 2005 at 11:55am

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I can think of a few scenarios where leaders chose ego over prudence and the concern for their own troops:

Montgomery - Operation Market Garden
Halsey - Battle of Leyte Gulf
Stalin - race to Berlin


....he he he, let the debating begin!   Wink
 

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Reply #39 - Dec 7th, 2005 at 12:11pm

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I can think of a few scenarios where leaders chose ego over prudence and the concern for their own troops:

Montgomery - Operation Market Garden
Halsey - Battle of Leyte Gulf
Stalin - race to Berlin


....he he he, let the debating begin!   Wink

If you wish to debate this further I think it deserves a topic of its own in the History forum.

I can't comment on the others but in Montgomery's defence & whatever else he might have been he had the reputation of putting his men first. They knew this & respected him for it. Market Garden was a daring plan that could have shortened the war & saved many 1,000s of lives on both sides if it had succeeded. The problem was that it was hastily planned & needed the full cooperation of all involved. The supply lines were stretched to the limit & although help was within a few miles they had to stand helplessly by & watch. I know this as my late father-in-law was with XXX Corps & he told me their tanks simply ran out of fuel & could go no further. The weather also played its part which is not unusual in this sort of operation. The D-Day invasion itself had been postponed for a couple of days for the same reasons. This could have easily ruined the whole operation which had taken months, if not years, of careful preparation.
 

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Reply #40 - Dec 7th, 2005 at 12:15pm

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RE: Montgomery, that's where I expected to get a response.  It's debatable, I'm sure he had good intentions, but one wonders how much to play his enormous ego affected his judgement, expecially considering his well-known rivalry with the other enormous ego:  *cough* ol' blood-n-gut's himself, Patton!  Wink
 

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Reply #41 - Dec 7th, 2005 at 12:18pm

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RE: Montgomery, that's where I expected to get a response.  It's debatable, I'm sure he had good intentions, but one wonders how much to play his enormous ego affected his judgement, expecially considering his well-known rivalry with the other enormous ego:  *cough* ol' blood-n-gut's himself, Patton!  Wink

Montgomery was indeed a stuffy character & also very stubborn, Not an easy man to get on with at all. His concern for his men was the main reason he & Patton didn't see eye to eye & that's an understatement.
 

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Reply #42 - Dec 7th, 2005 at 1:51pm

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His concern for his men was the main reason he & Patton didn't see eye to eye & that's an understatement.



I don't understand that.  What would Patton have to do with the men under Montgomery's command?
 

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Reply #43 - Dec 7th, 2005 at 2:18pm

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I don't understand that.  What would Patton have to do with the men under Montgomery's command?

Patton & Montgomery were expected to cooperate & it would obviously have been much better if they'd at least respected each other. I understand that the reverse was true & Patton always accused Montgomery of being too cautious when he wanted him to forge ahead whatever the risks involved as he would have done himself. Monty would have none of it & this was the cause of more disagreements between them. I don't know a great deal about 'Old Blood & Guts' as he was known but from what I've read about him this nickname was not undeserved. I could be quite wrong but get the impression he didn't care as much about his men's welfare as Monty did. It never made any sense to me that two completely opposite personalities with outsized egos who couldn't stand the sight of each other were put in charge of the biggest combined operation in history, or how it managed to succeed despite this.
 

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Reply #44 - Dec 7th, 2005 at 3:17pm

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I just went on a google tour, and I could'nt find anything to cooberate Montgomery and Patton not getting along having to do with a concern for the troops.  On the other hand, I did see text stating Montgomery criticized Eisenhower and accusing his commander of lending his ear to his rival Patton.  That text jives with what I recall having learned in the past.  In fact, Eisenhower almost fired Montgomery for insubordination.
 

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