Since the Freeware Forum & Payware Forums were split a few years ago, there seams to be a "grey" area that we would like to clear up with all of you.

Here is a little history as to why the TWO FORUMS were created.

Simviation has always been a BIG supporter of Freeware Addons! Our library consists of thousands of free aircraft, scenery, utilities and many other programs that give the flight Sim enthusiast a never-ending selection to chose from.

The Screenshot Forum was introduced by Pete to give us the opportunity to share our images and experiences with one another. This forum was started before Payware Companies even existed.

As the Payware companies became a growing part of the Flight Sim community, Payware images started becoming more and more frequent among all the great freeware shots.

Simviation has always been focused on offering the community FREE ad ons to enhance their simulator. It has always been Pete's goal to keep Simviation a site that caters to the many developers that want to share their products with the Flight Sim Community for free.

THE BIG SPLIT!

Since the Site is based on Free Add Ons, people should be able to view the Screenshot Forum and see what great free add ons they can add to their Sim. It allows people to say, "Wow, I can get that aircraft and scenery too and it does not cost me anything!" It stays true to what the vision of the site is and what this site is about....
"Over 60GB of Freeware Add-ons. Providing 2 Million Files Monthly to Flight Simulator Users Worldwide!"


The decision was made to split the Screenshot forums into 2 separate forums,
The Freeware Screen Shot Forum & The Payware Screen Shot Forum.
This way it gave the user a choice to view what the two different types of add ons had to offer. It also eliminated the constant question of, "Is that Payware or Freeware?"


By splitting the Forums it gave the Freeware user a forum of their own to share their images with everybody else who could get the same add on simply by downloading it.

It also gave the Payware user a separate forum of their own to share their Payware images and show what type of Aircraft & Scenery Payware Products had to offer.


Thus, the two separate forums were introduced...

THE GREY AREA!

Besides the obvious Payware Aircraft & Scenery add ons, a few Payware utilities have arrived. Payware products that do not "promote" the Aircraft or Scenery itself, but offer the viewer a different perspective of the image!

The Payware in question would be Active Camera or Walk & Follow.

From the PM's I constantly receive, many think that it should be allowed in the Freeware Forum. The shots are of Freeware Aircraft & Scenery but the shot has been captured with a Payware product. The person posting the shot is not showing you something you need to purchase but giving you a unique perspective of their shot.

Remember, the forums were split to separate
Freeware Aircraft & Scenery from Payware Aircraft & Scenery.
It never had anything to do with image capture programs.
This should not be about, "Hey, that is Payware, it does not belong here", because of how the shot was taken!
There are so many great shots in the Freeware forum and many talented people posting them.
Do you really want to lose some really unique shots in the Freeware Forum because somebody used a "different lens on their camera to take the shot"?
By telling people that they need to post their shots in the Payware Forum because of the "way it looks", is really a loss to The Freeware Screen Shot Forum itself, IMHO.


SINCE THE POLL OPTION IS NOT WORKING AT THE MOMENT, PLEASE START YOUR RESPONSE WITH
YES OR NO and maybe post a comment on how you feel about this, Thanks
We leave it up to you.

Should Payware Image Capture Programs
be allowed in the Freeware Forum?

Utilities that aren't part of the shot, should be allowed. It's the content of the image which matters.

So it's a big from me.

I'd say yes! But that's only because I've got W&F myself..

Well, I'm saying yes

Investing in a great screenshot programme seems to be a good investment. It also adds a new dimension to the flying experience...

My opinion is that the payware forum should just be about payware planes and scenery i.e. airports, mesh.
All other stuff should go in freeware.

But you paid for that stuff!!

Well, my computer has cost me 1500 dollars or something to date over the years. It's quite nice now. Judging by many people's sigs many have great systems which also cost them or their parents a lot. Should we 'cool pc owners' turn down all our settings and shoot jaggied shots in 800x600 because it makes people who haven't such a good system unhappy?

Remember, we are not competing...we are fans of aviation art, why not use things which make our pictures nicer and so on, if we can. By setting your heart against it you are doing yourself a disfavour, IMHO, because they improve your pics and pics is what we like... right?

I hope people will keep this friendly

Thats all...

However..... I've just started using my Flight Environment and after consultation with Fly2e I will be posting my otherwise all freeware shots in payware from now on anyway....LOL

It is the rules and I respect them, so bye bye to the Freeware Forum from me

....You will come and see me in payware sometime won't you (plaintive tone )?

Regards

Krigl

Put simply, it's not my opinion that matters, it's you (the mods) that make the rules...and whatever you guys say, we usually stick to that...so I don't mind...even though I have W&F... 8)

For the freeware forum, I don't really care what Image Capture Program someone uses.  As long as there is no payware in the shot itself I'm ok with it (not that I would recognize any payware )

So I say

YES

There is no outside shot that can be captured with a payweare program that cannot be captured with a little thought:

Considerations? Distance of spotplane & zoom - in or out.

Challenge: Show me something you think only a payware Image capture program can produce & I will produce it in a couple of minutes using nothing but FS9.

My opinion, obviously,  is that these are irrelevant for outside shots ......

& it doesn't need to be payware either - there are free such utilities ....  8)

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Well, pete...
I was just thinking, with some payware programs you may have to use them on your pc rather than a freeware program (for instance, I have a laptop, and want F1view, but I would need a scrolling mouse, and, seeing as I know of no other freeware programs that can do it, I may need a payware one.)

I see your point perfectly pete, and I may change my opinion, but still, it was just a thought.
Thanks 

Payware is payware, no matter if it's working in the background or an active part of the screenshot.

This would be the first step of destroying the foundation of this forum. I'm sure the next step will be allowing such add-ons like Flight Environment.


Hence: No - only over my dead body.

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Well, I had a laptop with a touch pad and I flew aorund in FS with that. I used the Active Camera Plug-in for FS2002 (which was my sim then) and I used keyboard keys for moving around...

NO

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This has the potential for an exciting new thread - "Anything Payware can do, Freeware can do too!"  It would be an interesting challenge, and something different from the usual screenshots.

Gryshnak

Nice one Though is that all done from the VC?

Yep, that's all VC.

Alpha agrees with Soui and votes

NO

Remember, in the freeware forums the playing ground is supposed to be even. This software will give certain people advantages in the contest and just allows them to produce better shots than others.
I agree with Heretic, this could be the beginning of the Pete's freeware concept starting to crumble.

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I second that!

NO

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I don't understand!!
What do you mean by Advantage?

This is not a contest!!
That is why we do not allow it in the Monthly contest.

IT IS A SCREENSHOT FORUM!

I think what it comes down to is people are a bit jealous of somebody who may have paid for it and feel like they should not dare attempt to post a shot in here.

If we do decide to allow it, what is the harm?

An even playing field ???

Jeez, it is only a shot of a plane and some of you make this out to be like a "That is not fair!!!"

I am not affected by this any more so I can say I am impartial....so here's my 2c (already voted yes before...)

The payware forum, as stated by Fly2e, is for people interested in payware planes and scenery ie Emmas Field. That's what its for. Using W+F is not of interest there.

Grysnak and Pete have both stated that it is possible to get the same effects by using F1 view, so one would imagine there isn't really a problem.

As a user of both I would say that W=F can be used with any planes, not just those with an all-plane VC. I doubt if it is possible to take a default C172 with the ground above it with F1, but who knows..

But what W+F does do is it enables screenshot fans to take better pics of anything they want. Why not use it? If you choose not to, why is it a problem that others use it?  However, I can't see a reason why not to use it (in freeware, not the comp) - its easy and fun, will make your FS experience better and costs 30 dollars.

But its payware!!! Well...

Many people have their computer specs in their Sig and post threads like "My first pics with the new system". Their new system cost a lot of money. Others cannot afford it. The 'playing field' is not 'even', even in the contest. Many people on this whole site can't even run FS2004.

To spend a ton on a new computer and then ask people who spend $30 on a screenshot program to post their freeware shots in payware where people want to look at the latest payware planes/scenery seems strange. Who spent more?

Why not enjoy the fruits of other people's 'art work' made with W+F, and think about buying it yourself when you next consider an upgrade. If you'd rather spend a bit more on the latest graphics card, okay, but why stop others...

like I said, I don't really care too much now because I'm in Payware but I just find it hard to understand how a nice development in our hobby is rejected so violently. This is a fun hobby shared by like-minded enthusiasts, not a competion. ...

Thats all guys

Regards

Krigl

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I doubt it. I have active camera myself, as well as F1 view on my other PC.

As for walk and follow (my main grudge):
I think that Geforce 7800GT - 1024MB RAM - AMD ATHLON 64 3500+ - MSI K8N SLI NFORCE 4 CHIPSET BASED MOTHERBOARD PLATINUM EDITION - 19 INCH BENQ LCD MONITOR - SAITEK X45  were a tad more expensive than one little payware program.

Then again, I dont want to turn this into a major issue on my behalf so just ignore me, im going to go watch flying heavy metal on the discovery.
Just my opinion...

Still friends everybody

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Of course, that is not what this is about.
It is about hearing what people think about the subject at hand. 

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That's a good point, Heretic. However, it is also true of people with a great computer system, or who have the time+knowledge to find great new planes/scenery which attract interest. It will probably also be true when some people have FS2006 and the rest not.

If you are interested in getting responses to your 'work', as everyone to some degree is, you have to invest a lot of time into it, but also money in your computer system. Screenshots full of jaggies from FS98 don't attract a lot of attention, it's true.

Investing in W+F or FS10 is the same deal. Money. If you haven't got it then it's best to just accept it and enjoy the results produced by people who have... But to be honest, 30 dollars to people who spend 300 or 600 on graphics cards, memory, processors, cooling etc is not a big deal...

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My computer was terrible before March or so. (I was also pretty poor, as an English teacher in Eastern Europe but then we got a new, temporary source of income... until my looks fade ) I looked in on SimV but saw the quality and didn't bother trying...It wouldn't have occured to me to tell people that they should turn down their settings so their pics could be like mine.

The playing field is not level, here or in life. And all we are talking about here is taking screenshots of angled horizons, which I think look pretty cool and would like to see more of.

Still friends? You bet guys, I love it in here and don't want to antagonise.. Just my opinion, take or leave as you like.

To be honest, actually, now I'm in payware I'm kind of hoping this poll  will be a 'NO' - then more of my colleagues from freeware might migrate and I might get a few more positive comments than 2 or 3 after hours of work and (IMHO) interesting pics, as is the situation right now for me

edit: oh, got a couple more! Guess I'll quit whining now

edit 2: Oh, and have you heard about Flight Environment, some really great (though somewhat unrealistic and you can get similar results with freeware) sunset textures, and the water's pretty nice, maybe as nice as my freeware waterzone, though that's hard to beat.

Oh, and the Captain Sim C-130!!! It whips the camels a$$ with a belt..!!!

Payywwarree, paaayyyywarreee (subliminal whispering) come on in my sweeties, my tasty tidbits... the water's fine... sssssssssssssssssssss


Regards

Krigl

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Very true... here we're talking about knowledge, experience and time as investments... my pics were just jaggied shots of a plane flying until I looked in here, got very helpful advice, absorbed how other people take nice pics, got inspiration and so on.... if it doesn't occur to you, or you are not a creative type or you don't understand your computer (I only found out about tweaking the card a month or two back, didn't know it was possible) then you never get 'better'. Playing field still not level....IMHO.. and why should it be. People are different...

It's also a matter of taste, my first cessna shots in payware attracted one comment that they were worse than in freeware, plus a couple of comments that I bought the wrong cessna... not much praise there for my W+F and FE. And they weren't bad... in fact I quite liked them

I got some nice pics out of my old computer too, but it was like playing a slide show. No fun. Either enjoy flying, or post nice-ish shots. Now I can do both - Yippee!!!

Cost me a bomb of course... my money which also goes on house, car, wife, children... working adults have less free money than pre-work guys imagine...And less time - when I stay up late in my only free time taking pics it means the next day I'm exhausted, and have to perform in front of a class... another kind of investment - in the destruction of my health

All I want to do is post my 'art' on a site which is different from work - is free, and fun, without too many rules, except those that safeguard people from aggression, offence etc.  And I want to mix with other like minded people, look at their great stuff. This is my idea of fun.... (I have others too...) I've looked around the net and SimV really seems to be the best for screenshot forums...so whatever the result of this poll I don't mind too much...

It's been nice debating with you Heretic, hope we're still amicable friends!!!

See you later, got to work now...

Krigl

Had to pop back in

In answer to Heretic again...

...I hope people don't feel there's been a hijacking by the way, I think (hope) the points we are both making are useful...

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Regarding spending ages twiddling to get the best shots...

If a plane has an outside VC you can take the same shots using F1, if it hasn't, you can't (probably).

You'll spend just as long with W+F if not longer; more possibilities, more choices... the results can be great and you are just as satisfied. I haven't noticed any time saving since using these programs (w+f and FE), but my enjoyment of flying and screenie taking has increased immensely..

It's also more fun!!! I love placing the plane in one corner and then looping it, inverting etc, and seeing the sky and ground whirl crazily around me while following the plane as if in formation. It's the only formation I'm probably ever going to manage, I suck at it in mp .

It adds to the feeling of motion and flying and you can enjoy it with any plane, even the default 747 if you like......sloooowly...

A second point: The "spirit of freeware" is commonly held to be about guys giving up their free time to create something, enjoying this process of course, and then making it available for free. I think it's great of them to do this, and that is why you'll never (well, almost never ) hear me complaining about the deficiencies of some plane - I take them as I find them, and if I don't like them... bye bye.

However, taking screenshots is not "creating freeware" it is simply enjoying the fruits of other people's labour, and it is possible to argue that by using W+F and other things like FE you are actually showing off other people's work in the best possible light, doing it justice, helping to bring it to a wider audience etc.

Thirdly, and briefly, I disagree that there are higher standards in payware... there are high standards in both forums, and both have their star posters which I marvel at and try to learn from. And my favourite are the stories, where quality of shot comes second or equally with the ideas that go into them.

When I stated 'not much praise for my FE and w+f" what I mean is that no one said "wow FE!! or W+F"
People say "Yeah, Captain Sim Hercules!" or "Great Carenado XXX". W+F is just a tool... payware is imho for payware collectors... The RealAir Spit. The FeelThere so and so...

I have to say that if I had the cash I would also be collecting payware. Why not...

Cheers

Krigl

Ok Heretic, I guess we'll just agree to disagree.

On 'why collect payware at all' I think the answer is clear... why do anything? If I had the money for it I would do it, just as I now 'collect' and cram my hard drive with freeware stuff. If I had the money I would go on exotic holidays too... I can't - oh well. I wouldn't buy a payware VC-10 because Maltby's is good enough for me, but I might buy something which I was really keen on, and didn't have a great quality freeware add-on. Or even if there was one. People can do what they like with their money, and if some people are making a living developing addons for FS thats wonderful for them. I have to do something less fun, but that's my fault and my choice. I don't bear grudges towards them for being lucky enough to have a great job.

Otherwise, I'm bowing out of this debate...
I've made all the points I think I can make on the topic, sorry all to take up so much space, but it is one I feel quite strongly about even though it doesn't directly affect me. I can understand that others see things differently, and the need for rules in a forum in order to maintain the high standards it has.

I guess 'the mods' will make their decision based on the opinions of all interested parties, so I hope some other people will add their voices to this debate...I'm going to give it a rest now...promise...nothing else to say anyway...

...it's an interesting topic, curious as to the result

See you around!!!

Krigl

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Wow Souichiro, neat and straight to the point... wish I could do that lol

Krigl

I have an idea!!!

Why don't we drop the whole subject and just let it lie.

If somebody posts a shot or two using w+F, so be it.

Most people who are using it are posting in the Payware Forum anyway.
I don't even think there is a person in the Freeware Forum that has W+F and posts continuously.

So I guess I will "Un-stick" this and whatever happens, happens.

Besides, chasing people around from forum to forum to check and see if they are using W+F where they shouldn't is a total waste of time,

from my point of view 

Thanks for all your input.

So it is safe to say that if somebody uses W+F in here, that they will be frowned upon and we will let the members put them in their place! 

Have fun!

Dave

I say ditch the Payware screenshot forum and combine them again. That'll get rid of all arguments about whats allowed and whats not. Plus those who live in the payware forum won't miss out on whats in the freeware forum and vice versa. I mean honestly, is it really that had to answer the "Is it freeware or payware?" question?

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When it comes down to it they are basically the same question. So why endure one and not the other?

My opinion...seperating the two only serves to divide the community...

And you may have a user (like me) who uses primarily freeware, but has a payware installed here and there.

I also don't care for members who stand on their plastic platforms and scorn those who like to buy payware...I mean really!  It all comes down to what you like...in the end, it's all good!

Screenshots are also up to the skill of the photographer...freeware can look just as good as payware, in the right hands, (just as a payware shot can look like crap).  Hence, I see little point in keeping payware out of contests.

I really think we should just have it all on one forum, just my opinion though...

I tend to agree with Jordan and Woodlouse ....... when it actually comes down to it we all PAY for our copy of FS. So to follow Heretic's argument to it's most extreme, what are we doing posting any shots of any flightsim apart from open source free ones in the freeware forum?

Whilst I appreciate and applaude Pete's mission statement to concentrate the efforts of this site on supporting, showcasing and providing freeware developers with a forum to show their wares, the payware developers deserve just as much recoginiton.  I don't really see the reason for not just having one screenshot forum.  It still gives the user the choice of what to view and to compare and contrast the attributes of both types of addon. I don't see how this could be detrimental to the freeware developers in fact it would be an insentive to improve their wares.

This site has by far and away the best screenshot forums, considering that the guidelines for posting are more stringent than most other sites. Almost everyone who posts their shots here on Simv can blow the socks of those who post on other forums. Wether you use freeware or payware addons should be irrelevent as we all strive to be better at what we do within this hobby.

I chose to throw money into my hobby to improve my FS experience and I've been lucky enough to be able to do so. I should not be sneered at by those who don't have the same opportunity, I would not look down on those who cannot afford to follow my example.

Let's all just enjoy this hobby and strive to continue to be the best site on the web for those who happen upon it.

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I think there are freeware utilities that'll do exactly the same as Walk and Follow and Active Camera so it doesn't matter what was used to take the shot.

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*Sigh*

I wrote in one of my first posts in this thread that FS is excluded from the discussion. We all payed for it after all.

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Exactly. Me and many, many others who either have no credit card or don't want to spend a ridiculous amount of money for unnecessary stuff.

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Do whatever you want. But don't expect a nice word for your pics from me in one of those W&F threads.

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I agree