Simviation Forum - The fateful night of January 2nd, 1944

Nov 30^th, 2005 at 2:37am

JRoc Offline
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Just took up some more research on my mum's uncle, F/O Alexander J Salaba, RCAF.

Turned up a wealth of information. Aircraft designation and serial, down to the pilot that shot them down. I'm quite proud to know that he was part the elite Pathfinders.

Quote:

Lancaster III (serial JB280) designation LQ-K of 405 Squadron (Pathfinder squadron)

- Took off at 0023 from Gransden Lodge (Bedfordshire) for bombing raid on Berlin

- Shot down by night fighter pilot Lt Friedrich 'Fritz' Potthast of IV./NJG1, crashing at approx. 0210 at Nieuw Schoonebeek (Drenthe). No survivors. Crew was buried on January 5th at Schoonebeek General Cemetery.

Crew:
F/O T.H. Donnelly DFM RCAF (Pilot)
Sgt L.G.R. Miller RAF
F/O A.J. Salaba RCAF (Navigator)
F/S W.L.J. Clark RCAF
Sgt B.S.J. West RAF
Sgt R.E. Watts RAF (Tail Gunner)
Sgt R. Zimmer RCAF

I only have the above three positions (in parenthesis), as those are the only ones I have verification of.

RAF Bomber Command lost a total of 27 aircraft (including 10 Pathfinders) on the 2/3 raid, and 28 the previous night.

The Luftwaffe pilot, Lt Potthast, was later KIA on March 22, 1944 with a total of 11 air victories, 10 of which were night victories.

« Last Edit: Nov 30^th, 2005 at 7:40am by JRoc »

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Reply #1 - Nov 30^th, 2005 at 3:20am

SilverFox441 Offline
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WOW!

Nice to be able to trace something in the family tree like this, you should be proud.

As an aside, F/S W.L.J. Clark RCAF was probably the copilot. The remainder of the crew are listed simply as Sergeant, so the one Flight Sergeant would seem to be a sure thing for the one flight crew position not known.

I wouldn't be surprised to find that the RAF crew members were all gunners assigned to fill out an RCAF crew, which would make Sgt. Zimmer the Bombadier.

Steve (Silver Fox) Daly

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Reply #2 - Nov 30^th, 2005 at 4:04am

Hagar Offline
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Very interesting story. I'm pleased that you were able to trace him. This would have been of some comfort to his immediate family. It will never be known what happened to many of those crews. I met an elderly lady at an air display a couple of years ago wearing numerous badges of the Lancaster. As she obviously had an affection for the aircraft I asked her about them. It turned out that her late husband had been a radio operator on the Lanc during WWII. He was listed as "Missing presumed killed" while on a secret mission two weeks before the war ended. She never found out what happened to him until 50 years later when secret documents were declassified. She married again after some years & her present husband investigated all this for her & she was finally able to visit his grave in Germany. It was a very touching story. She told me that she follows the BBMF Lanc wherever it goes & also knows the crew.

Quote:

As an aside, F/S W.L.J. Clark RCAF was probably the copilot. The remainder of the crew are listed simply as Sergeant, so the one Flight Sergeant would seem to be a sure thing for the one flight crew position not known.

I wouldn't be surprised to find that the RAF crew members were all gunners assigned to fill out an RCAF crew, which would make Sgt. Zimmer the Bombadier.

It's not always easy to find this out as things are not always as they might appear. RAF Bomber Command pilots were usually allowed to pick their own crews where possible but this was more often a matter of chance as they would have been complete strangers & the choice would be limited to who was available. It might have been different for the RCAF crews but not all RAF pilots were officers & I've read about more than one Sergeant Pilot with an officer tailgunner.

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Reply #3 - Nov 30^th, 2005 at 6:04am

C Offline
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Quote:

As an aside, F/S W.L.J. Clark RCAF was probably the copilot. The remainder of the crew are listed simply as Sergeant, so the one Flight Sergeant would seem to be a sure thing for the one flight crew position not known.

I wouldn't be surprised to find that the RAF crew members were all gunners assigned to fill out an RCAF crew, which would make Sgt. Zimmer the Bombadier.

RAF bombers in WWII did not usually have the luxury of a co-pilot, although occasionally new pilots would go up as "second pilot" for experience. In fact the later heavy bombers (Stirling, Halifax, Lancaster) only had the one set of controls. The crew would have been made up of:

Pilot
Navigator
Bomb Aimer (we didn't call them bombardiers)
Flight Engineer
Wireless Operator,
Top Turret Gunner
Rear Turret Gunner

The exception to this also occured later in the war when some of the smaller Pathfinder sqns would fly with a more experienced pilot (often from the Mosquito force) for the bomb run itself.

Quote:

It's not always easy to find this out as things are not always as they might appear. RAF Bomber Command pilots were usually allowed to pick their own crews where possible but this was more often a matter of chance as they would have been complete strangers & the choice would be limited to who was available. It might have been different for the RCAF crews but not all RAF pilots were officers & I've read about more than one Sergeant Pilot with an officer tailgunner.

I imagine it was a mix of a matter of choice and those who happen to enter the OTUs (Operational Training Unit) at the same time as crews were initially formed at the OTU.

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Reply #4 - Nov 30^th, 2005 at 8:07am

Hagar Offline
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Quote:

RAF bombers in WWII did not usually have the luxury of a co-pilot, although occasionally new pilots would go up as "second pilot" for experience. In fact the later heavy bombers (Stirling, Halifax, Lancaster) only had the one set of controls. The crew would have been made up of:

Pilot
Navigator
Bomb Aimer (we didn't call them bombardiers)
Flight Engineer
Wireless Operator,
Top Turret Gunner
Rear Turret Gunner

The exception to this also occured later in the war when some of the smaller Pathfinder sqns would fly with a more experienced pilot (often from the Mosquito force) for the bomb run itself.

Quite right Charlie although I understand that one of the crew members could often take over the controls in an emergency, for example; if the pilot was seriously injured or killed. This would involve physically moving him from the seat & taking his place.

I found this article on a similar incident which gives the crew positions in the Lancaster. http://www.need-family.demon.co.uk/
Although this was the radial-engined Mk II I imagine this was the same on all Lancs.
Quote:

The Crew
The Avro Lancaster was normally manned by seven crew members:

Pilot - A S Frampton - Seated on the left hand side of the cockpit. There was no Co-Pilot
Navigator - R G Rivers - Seated at a table facing to the port (left) of the aircraft behind the pilot and flight engineer.
Flight Engineer - S R J Price - Seated next to the pilot on a folding seat.
Bomb Aimer - P F Willis-Culpitt - Seated when operating the front gun turret, but positioned in a laying position when directing the pilot on to the aiming point prior to releasing the bomb load.
Wireless Operator/Air Gunner - B E Ansell - Seated, facing forward and directly beside the navigator.
Mid Gunner - T W Hennessy - Seated in the mid upper turret, in the unheated section of the fuselage.
Rear Gunner - C H Winters - Seated in the isolated unheated rear turret.

« Last Edit: Nov 30^th, 2005 at 9:48am by Hagar »

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Reply #5 - Nov 30^th, 2005 at 8:09am

C Offline
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Quote:

Quite right Charlie although I understand that one of the crew members could often take over the controls in an emergency, for example; if the pilot was seriously ijured or killed.

Indeed, I imagine it was normally the flight engineer, considering his technical expertise and the fact he was sat next to the pilot 90% of the time.

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Reply #6 - Nov 30^th, 2005 at 8:19am

Hagar Offline
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Also note that the pilot (captain) & rear gunner of the Lanc from my link were both Pilot Officers.

Pilot: Pilot Officer Allan Stanley FRAMPTON RNZAF.
http://www.need-family.demon.co.uk/Frampton.htm

Rear gunner: Pilot Officer Charles Hugh WINTERS RCAF.
http://www.need-family.demon.co.uk/Winters.htm

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Reply #7 - Nov 30^th, 2005 at 8:27am

C Offline
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Quote:

Also note that the pilot (captain) & rear gunner of the Lanc from my link were both Pilot Officers.

Pilot: Pilot Officer Allan Stanley FRAMPTON RNZAF.
http://www.need-family.demon.co.uk/Frampton.htm

Rear gunner: Pilot Officer Charles Hugh WINTERS RCAF.
http://www.need-family.demon.co.uk/Winters.htm

Indeed. A suprisingly high number of air gunners were Officers. I'm faily sure they may have been several all Officer crews in Bomber Command.

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Reply #8 - Mar 3^rd, 2013 at 7:56am

Carduelis Offline
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JRoc wrote on Nov 30^th, 2005 at 2:37am:

Just took up some more research on my mum's uncle, F/O Alexander J Salaba, RCAF.

Turned up a wealth of information. Aircraft designation and serial, down to the pilot that shot them down. I'm quite proud to know that he was part the elite Pathfinders.

Quote:

Lancaster III (serial JB280) designation LQ-K of 405 Squadron (Pathfinder squadron)

- Took off at 0023 from Gransden Lodge (Bedfordshire) for bombing raid on Berlin

- Shot down by night fighter pilot Lt Friedrich 'Fritz' Potthast of IV./NJG1, crashing at approx. 0210 at Nieuw Schoonebeek (Drenthe). No survivors. Crew was buried on January 5th at Schoonebeek General Cemetery.

Crew:
F/O T.H. Donnelly DFM RCAF (Pilot)
Sgt L.G.R. Miller RAF
F/O A.J. Salaba RCAF (Navigator)
F/S W.L.J. Clark RCAF
Sgt B.S.J. West RAF
Sgt R.E. Watts RAF (Tail Gunner)
Sgt R. Zimmer RCAF

I only have the above three positions (in parenthesis), as those are the only ones I have verification of.

RAF Bomber Command lost a total of 27 aircraft (including 10 Pathfinders) on the 2/3 raid, and 28 the previous night.

The Luftwaffe pilot, Lt Potthast, was later KIA on March 22, 1944 with a total of 11 air victories, 10 of which were night victories.

I have some information about Lancaster JB280, have metaldetected the area and found small pieces (alu).
Know extact spot of crash.
Dutch reports - Pilot logbook and so on.
I have contact with the son of Watts (this year he will visit Schoonebeek again).

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