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Canberra PR9. (Read 664 times)
Nov 8th, 2005 at 7:06pm

eno   Offline
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I've just watched a programme about the aircraft in the subject line. The PR9 is due to be retired from operations in 2006.
At this time the Canberra in all of it's types will have been in continuous operational service with the RAF for about 55 years.

Here's the poser ........ is this a record? ..... Is there any other aircraft out there that can match this service record?

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Reply #1 - Nov 8th, 2005 at 7:18pm

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Currently? I dont think so, But I believe come its retirement the B52 will have surpassed it. If it isn't close already ???
 
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Reply #2 - Nov 8th, 2005 at 7:26pm

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The Canberra is certainly an amazing aircraft & has given wonderful service. I remember having a discussion about this some time ago & the Canberra is certainly a candidate for length of service as far as the RAF goes. I think the Chipmunk also comes close as this entered service before the Canberra & there's a couple with the BBMF that are still on the RAF inventory. I think this also applies to the other BBMF aircraft like the Dakota & maybe the Spitfires & Hurricanes as some have been in continuous service - although these might not qualify as they've been purely display aircraft for some years now.

As for world records with other countries services I have no idea.

PS. The Canberra first entered service with 101 Squadron on 25 May 1951 as a medium bomber. http://news.mod.uk/news/press/news_headline_story.asp?newsItem_id=3478
The Chipmunk entered RAF service during the previous year (in 1950 although I don't know the date). I'm wondering if there are any plans to keep a Canberra airworthy. It seems a shame if they allow them to be scrapped as with so many of these famous types in the past.
 

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Reply #3 - Nov 8th, 2005 at 8:00pm

Hagar   Offline
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Quote:
Currently? I dont think so, But I believe come its retirement the B52 will have surpassed it. If it isn't close already ???

According to this the B-52B entered service in 1955, four years after the Canberra. http://www.fighter-planes.com/info/b52.htm
I don't know how long it will continue or what, if anything, will replace it.
 

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Reply #4 - Nov 8th, 2005 at 8:03pm

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According to this the B-52B entered service in 1955, four years after the Canberra. http://www.fighter-planes.com/info/b52.htm
I don't know how long it will continue or what, if anything, will replace it.

Both very simmilar in that sense. So effective that there is really nothing to replace it.
 
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Reply #5 - Nov 8th, 2005 at 8:47pm

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The DC-3/C-47 .....  Antonov 2 ...

Even after the retirement of the Canberra PR.9  (and I wouldn't be surprised if it makes a "comeback"), the RB-57B - high altitude recon version is still soldiering on with NASA, and is expected to continue in service until (at least 2010)

The Chipmunk was retired from the Portugese Air Force in the 90's  and a few examples were recently brought back into service.

IF you're going to include the BBMF, then I think the Hurricane counts as the longest serving type  (If only because it preceded the Spit into service by a few weeks?)
 

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Reply #6 - Nov 8th, 2005 at 11:20pm
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yeah, I believe the DC-3/C-47 probably holds the record.  If not only for military service definately for overall commercial services.
 
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Reply #7 - Nov 9th, 2005 at 2:48am

C   Offline
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Quote:
At this time the Canberra in all of it's types will have been in continuous operational service with the RAF for about 55 years.


Probably nothing beats that yet, if we're talking operational service...
 
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Reply #8 - Nov 9th, 2005 at 3:03am

eno   Offline
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Quote:
Probably nothing beats that yet, if we're talking operational service...



That's what I was thinking Charlie it's the OPERATIONAL part that makes the Canberra unique ...... although I can't find any records confirming this.
 

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Reply #9 - Nov 9th, 2005 at 4:54am

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Quote:
Probably nothing beats that yet, if we're talking operational service...

Depends on how you look at it & what is meant by operational. Would a trainer like the Chipmunk be considered an operational aircraft? The BBMF Chippies are still used as trainers, the job they have always been used for & I believe they're still on the RAF inventory.
 

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Reply #10 - Nov 9th, 2005 at 6:22am

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Hawker Hurricane MkIIc LF363 was buit in January 1944, believed to be the last Hurricane delivered to the RAF, and it was in continual service with the RAF until it crashed in September 1991 making it the longest serving aircraft in the RAF.
 

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Reply #11 - Nov 9th, 2005 at 6:37am

eno   Offline
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Quote:
Depends on how you look at it & what is meant by operational. Would a trainer like the Chipmunk be considered an operational aircraft? The BBMF Chippies are still used as trainers, the job they have always been used for & I believe they're still on the RAF inventory.


The Chippy is not listed on the current RAF inventory.... not according to the RAF site anyway.
http://www.raf.mod.uk/equipment/acref.html

But they are listed in the Misc units inventory
http://www.raf.mod.uk/equipment/strength.html
 

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Reply #12 - Nov 9th, 2005 at 6:40am

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Quote:
Hawker Hurricane MkIIc LF363 was buit in January 1944, believed to be the last Hurricane delivered to the RAF, and it was in continual service with the RAF until it crashed in September 1991 making it the longest serving aircraft in the RAF.

Ah, but was this operational service or partly as a display aircraft? I can't imagine any air force in the world still using the Hurricane as a front line fighter in 1991. This all depends on what you regard as 'operational' & 'continuous service' & whether a trainer like the Chipmunk is considered an operational type. The only model of Canberra now in RAF service is the PR9 as according to the MoD website the last remaining T4 was retired on 1 September 2005.
Both are somewhat different to the B2 that first entered service in May 1951 & the first PR9 was not delivered until 1959.

Sorry if this appears pedantic but the criteria for this sort of thing are very often not too clear.
 

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Reply #13 - Nov 9th, 2005 at 6:48am

eno   Offline
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You're bloody quick Doug ......... I was only adding the second link to my post about the RAF inventory and wallop you'd replied..... and HawkerT too.

Surely ...... as a type rather than a specific model ..... its between the Chippys in the BBMF and the PR9s. It's just the definition of Operational that's in question.
 

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Reply #14 - Nov 9th, 2005 at 6:54am

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Quote:
The Chippy is not listed on the current RAF inventory.... not according to the RAF site anyway.
http://www.raf.mod.uk/equipment/acref.html

But they are listed in the Misc units inventory
http://www.raf.mod.uk/equipment/strength.html

I'm not sure about the specifics but the BBMF is operated by the RAF which I assume means that the aircraft are still regarded as operational RAF types. At least some of these aircraft have been in 'continuous service' as they were never disposed of by the RAF. I don't know the history of the Chipmunks they still use for taildragger conversion.
 

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Reply #15 - Nov 9th, 2005 at 7:08am

Hagar   Offline
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Quote:
You're bloody quick Doug ......... I was only adding the second link to my post about the RAF inventory and wallop you'd replied..... and HawkerT too.

Surely ...... as a type rather than a specific model ..... its between the Chippys in the BBMF and the PR9s. It's just the definition of Operational that's in question.

Ah well. I just happened to be typing my reply to Tempest when you added further comments. This is one of my pet subjects & I could pontificate on it all day. Wink

I've been fortunate enough to have seen all variations of the Canberra & many other legendary RAF types in the air since they first entered service & many in their prototype form. I've even flown in a couple of them like the Chipmunk & Hunter T7, not forgetting the legendary Tiger Moth. 8) Wink
 

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Reply #16 - Nov 9th, 2005 at 7:23am

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My first encounted with the PR9 was at RAF Wyton on my first camp as an Air Cadet, I've liked them ever since 8)
 

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Reply #17 - Nov 9th, 2005 at 11:41am

C   Offline
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Quote:
Depends on how you look at it & what is meant by operational. Would a trainer like the Chipmunk be considered an operational aircraft? The BBMF Chippies are still used as trainers, the job they have always been used for & I believe they're still on the RAF inventory.


No, just as a Tutor, Tucano or Hawk would not be considered as an operational aircraft (unless a Hawk became involved as an air defence fighter). An operational aircraft would be an aircraft directly involved in the completion on military operations (be they war fighting, peacekeeping or humanitarian for example). The last time this may have occured with the Chippy would have been the hops out of Gatow in Berlin...

[edit]Hence this would also include all the BBMF types - the last in operational service of these would probably have been the Dakota ZA947 in its former guise (as we all know the ZA serials were from the late 70/early 80s! Wink). There's always KF183, the Harvard at Boscombe too...

Quote:
The only model of Canberra now in RAF service is the PR9 as according to the MoD website the last remaining T4 was retired on 1 September 2005. 
Both are somewhat different to the B2 that first entered service in May 1951 & the first PR9 was not delivered until 1959. 


I think it situations like this we always refer to the type, and not necessarily individual marks. This is very applicable for some types as the later marks are modified/retrofitted versions of earlier airframes which are allocated new serial, for example the single seat Hunters that were converted to become T7s...
 
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Reply #18 - Nov 9th, 2005 at 11:52am

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No, just as a Tutor, Tucano or Hawk would not be considered as an operational aircraft (unless a Hawk became involved as an air defence fighter). An operational aircraft would be an aircraft directly involved in the completion on military operations (be they war fighting, peacekeeping or humanitarian for example). The last time this may have occured with the Chippy would have been the hops out of Gatow in Berlin...

[edit]Hence this would also include all the BBMF types - the last in operational service of these would probably have been the Dakota ZA947 in its former guise (as we all know the ZA serial were from the late 70/early 80s! Wink). There's always KF183, the Harvard at Boscombe too...

Thanks for clarifying that. In that case the Canberra seems to win the prize hands down.

PS. I'd forgotten about that Harvard but as it's a trainer it probably comes under the same category as the Chippie.
 

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Reply #19 - Nov 9th, 2005 at 11:58am

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Quote:
PS. I'd forgotten about that Harvard but as it's a trainer it probably comes under the same category as the Chippie.


The last time that did anything warlike it was in the early 50s! Rocket trials for use against some nasty chaps in Kenya I think. It may have been the sister aircraft though... Smiley
 
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Reply #20 - Nov 9th, 2005 at 12:57pm

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The last time that did anything warlike it was in the early 50s! Rocket trials for use against some nasty chaps in Kenya I think. It may have been the sister aircraft though... Smiley

Very interesting. Boscombe is a test establishment after all. You will know more about these things than most people. Wink

A few more interesting factoids from memory. The Canberra broke a lot of records in its time which was a marvellous feat for its designer & a brand new company in the aircraft industry. The chief test pilot of English Electric was the late Roland Beamont who also tested the troublesome Hawker Typhoon & led the first operational squadron of them before the bugs had been properly ironed out. The pilots in the squadron were acting as test pilots during combat missions which was a risky business as if the engine didn't pack up the prop had a nasty habit of falling off or the tail could part company with the rest of the aircraft without warning. Meanwhile, the engine & prop manufacturers were squabbling about who was responsible for the faults, each blaming the other. This delayed anything being done to rectify the situation for about 6 months. On one occasion during a record attempt with the Canberra they ran out of the explosive bolts which held the big heavy canopy in place. Beamont insisted on them using ordinary bolts instead & went on to break the record but if something had gone wrong he couldn't have ejected. Beamont went on to test the English Electric Lightning & BAC TSR.2.
 

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Reply #21 - Nov 9th, 2005 at 1:00pm

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Quote:
Beamont went on to test the English Electric Lighning & BAC TSR.2.


I believe he also flew the Tornado MRCA before he retired...
 
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Reply #22 - Nov 9th, 2005 at 2:27pm
Tweek   Ex Member

 
Let's just hope they keep the Canberras in one piece after retirement. Considering its long career, I would think it would be one of the types that the MoD will actually consider keeping safe from scrap. Unlike the Valiant or Victor (1 complete Valiant, and 5 complete Victors still remain).
 
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Reply #23 - Nov 9th, 2005 at 2:49pm

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Let's just hope they keep the Canberras in one piece after retirement. Considering its long career, I would think it would be one of the types that the MoD will actually consider keeping safe from scrap. Unlike the Valiant or Victor (1 complete Valiant, and 5 complete Victors still remain).

I wouldn't bank on it. The only people in the RAF likely to be in a position to operate it would be the BBMF & I'm not convinced they would be interested. I think it's more than likely that when the time comes the remaining airworthy examples wll be offered for sale & a couple might be snapped up by private warbird operators. The Canberra has no afterburners so there's no reason it couldn't be displayed privately. Maybe Air Antique would be interested. The only problem there would be the European insurance regulations that grounded Sally B & I believe the Meteor at Kemble for most of this year's display season.

Anyone know what happened to the Canberra T4 that was retired in September?
 

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Reply #24 - Nov 9th, 2005 at 3:22pm
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Quote:
The Canberra has no afterburners so there's no reason it couldn't be displayed privately.


I'm guessing that would be a problem when the Jaguar goes out of service, too Roll Eyes
 
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Reply #25 - Nov 9th, 2005 at 3:38pm

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I doubt we'll see any airworthy PR.9s. I imagine the remaining examples may have already been earmarked for certain collections as there are so few of them, although I expect a few scrap dealers may be keen to get there hands on them...

As for the Jags, it's probably more a problem of the complexity of the aircraft systems more than the afterburner problem...
 
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Reply #26 - Nov 9th, 2005 at 5:57pm

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Quote:
Anyone know what happened to the Canberra T4 that was retired in September?

According to last months Flypast (or was it Aeroplane?) the T.4 was about to be put up for disposal. I hope it gets a good home. Looks rather nice in it’s prototype paint job.
 

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Reply #27 - Nov 9th, 2005 at 5:59pm

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According to last months Flypast (or was it Aeroplane?) the T.4 was about to be put up for disposal. I hope it gets a good home. Looks rather nice in it’s prototype paint job.


See the new Canberra post for some breaking news... Wink
 
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Reply #28 - Nov 10th, 2005 at 3:32am

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See the new Canberra post for some breaking news... Wink

Good news too. Seems my suggestion wasn't too far out. Wink
 

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