Simviation Forum - Canberra PR9.

Reply #15 - Nov 9^th, 2005 at 7:08am

Hagar Offline
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You're bloody quick Doug ......... I was only adding the second link to my post about the RAF inventory and wallop you'd replied..... and HawkerT too.

Surely ...... as a type rather than a specific model ..... its between the Chippys in the BBMF and the PR9s. It's just the definition of Operational that's in question.

Ah well. I just happened to be typing my reply to Tempest when you added further comments. This is one of my pet subjects & I could pontificate on it all day. Wink

I've been fortunate enough to have seen all variations of the Canberra & many other legendary RAF types in the air since they first entered service & many in their prototype form. I've even flown in a couple of them like the Chipmunk & Hunter T7, not forgetting the legendary Tiger Moth. 8) Wink

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Reply #16 - Nov 9^th, 2005 at 7:23am

ozzy72 Offline
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My first encounted with the PR9 was at RAF Wyton on my first camp as an Air Cadet, I've liked them ever since 8)

There are two types of aeroplane, Spitfires and everything else that wishes it was a Spitfire!

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Reply #17 - Nov 9^th, 2005 at 11:41am

C Offline
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Depends on how you look at it & what is meant by operational. Would a trainer like the Chipmunk be considered an operational aircraft? The BBMF Chippies are still used as trainers, the job they have always been used for & I believe they're still on the RAF inventory.

No, just as a Tutor, Tucano or Hawk would not be considered as an operational aircraft (unless a Hawk became involved as an air defence fighter). An operational aircraft would be an aircraft directly involved in the completion on military operations (be they war fighting, peacekeeping or humanitarian for example). The last time this may have occured with the Chippy would have been the hops out of Gatow in Berlin...

[edit]Hence this would also include all the BBMF types - the last in operational service of these would probably have been the Dakota ZA947 in its former guise (as we all know the ZA serials were from the late 70/early 80s! Wink

). There's always KF183, the Harvard at Boscombe too...

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The only model of Canberra now in RAF service is the PR9 as according to the MoD website the last remaining T4 was retired on 1 September 2005.
Both are somewhat different to the B2 that first entered service in May 1951 & the first PR9 was not delivered until 1959.

I think it situations like this we always refer to the type, and not necessarily individual marks. This is very applicable for some types as the later marks are modified/retrofitted versions of earlier airframes which are allocated new serial, for example the single seat Hunters that were converted to become T7s...

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Reply #18 - Nov 9^th, 2005 at 11:52am

Hagar Offline
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No, just as a Tutor, Tucano or Hawk would not be considered as an operational aircraft (unless a Hawk became involved as an air defence fighter). An operational aircraft would be an aircraft directly involved in the completion on military operations (be they war fighting, peacekeeping or humanitarian for example). The last time this may have occured with the Chippy would have been the hops out of Gatow in Berlin...

[edit]Hence this would also include all the BBMF types - the last in operational service of these would probably have been the Dakota ZA947 in its former guise (as we all know the ZA serial were from the late 70/early 80s! Wink

). There's always KF183, the Harvard at Boscombe too...

Thanks for clarifying that. In that case the Canberra seems to win the prize hands down.

PS. I'd forgotten about that Harvard but as it's a trainer it probably comes under the same category as the Chippie.

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Reply #19 - Nov 9^th, 2005 at 11:58am

C Offline
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PS. I'd forgotten about that Harvard but as it's a trainer it probably comes under the same category as the Chippie.

The last time that did anything warlike it was in the early 50s! Rocket trials for use against some nasty chaps in Kenya I think. It may have been the sister aircraft though...

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Reply #20 - Nov 9^th, 2005 at 12:57pm

Hagar Offline
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The last time that did anything warlike it was in the early 50s! Rocket trials for use against some nasty chaps in Kenya I think. It may have been the sister aircraft though...

Very interesting. Boscombe is a test establishment after all. You will know more about these things than most people. Wink

A few more interesting factoids from memory. The Canberra broke a lot of records in its time which was a marvellous feat for its designer & a brand new company in the aircraft industry. The chief test pilot of English Electric was the late Roland Beamont who also tested the troublesome Hawker Typhoon & led the first operational squadron of them before the bugs had been properly ironed out. The pilots in the squadron were acting as test pilots during combat missions which was a risky business as if the engine didn't pack up the prop had a nasty habit of falling off or the tail could part company with the rest of the aircraft without warning. Meanwhile, the engine & prop manufacturers were squabbling about who was responsible for the faults, each blaming the other. This delayed anything being done to rectify the situation for about 6 months. On one occasion during a record attempt with the Canberra they ran out of the explosive bolts which held the big heavy canopy in place. Beamont insisted on them using ordinary bolts instead & went on to break the record but if something had gone wrong he couldn't have ejected. Beamont went on to test the English Electric Lightning & BAC TSR.2.

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Reply #21 - Nov 9^th, 2005 at 1:00pm

C Offline
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Beamont went on to test the English Electric Lighning & BAC TSR.2.

I believe he also flew the Tornado MRCA before he retired...

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Reply #22 - Nov 9^th, 2005 at 2:27pm

Tweek Ex Member

Let's just hope they keep the Canberras in one piece after retirement. Considering its long career, I would think it would be one of the types that the MoD will actually consider keeping safe from scrap. Unlike the Valiant or Victor (1 complete Valiant, and 5 complete Victors still remain).

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Reply #23 - Nov 9^th, 2005 at 2:49pm

Hagar Offline
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Let's just hope they keep the Canberras in one piece after retirement. Considering its long career, I would think it would be one of the types that the MoD will actually consider keeping safe from scrap. Unlike the Valiant or Victor (1 complete Valiant, and 5 complete Victors still remain).

I wouldn't bank on it. The only people in the RAF likely to be in a position to operate it would be the BBMF & I'm not convinced they would be interested. I think it's more than likely that when the time comes the remaining airworthy examples wll be offered for sale & a couple might be snapped up by private warbird operators. The Canberra has no afterburners so there's no reason it couldn't be displayed privately. Maybe Air Antique would be interested. The only problem there would be the European insurance regulations that grounded Sally B & I believe the Meteor at Kemble for most of this year's display season.

Anyone know what happened to the Canberra T4 that was retired in September?

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Reply #24 - Nov 9^th, 2005 at 3:22pm

Tweek Ex Member

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The Canberra has no afterburners so there's no reason it couldn't be displayed privately.

I'm guessing that would be a problem when the Jaguar goes out of service, too Roll Eyes

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Reply #25 - Nov 9^th, 2005 at 3:38pm

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I doubt we'll see any airworthy PR.9s. I imagine the remaining examples may have already been earmarked for certain collections as there are so few of them, although I expect a few scrap dealers may be keen to get there hands on them...

As for the Jags, it's probably more a problem of the complexity of the aircraft systems more than the afterburner problem...

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Reply #26 - Nov 9^th, 2005 at 5:57pm

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Anyone know what happened to the Canberra T4 that was retired in September?

According to last months Flypast (or was it Aeroplane?) the T.4 was about to be put up for disposal. I hope it gets a good home. Looks rather nice in it’s prototype paint job.

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Reply #27 - Nov 9^th, 2005 at 5:59pm

C Offline
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According to last months Flypast (or was it Aeroplane?) the T.4 was about to be put up for disposal. I hope it gets a good home. Looks rather nice in it’s prototype paint job.

See the new Canberra post for some breaking news... Wink

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Reply #28 - Nov 10^th, 2005 at 3:32am

Hagar Offline
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See the new Canberra post for some breaking news... Wink

Good news too. Seems my suggestion wasn't too far out. Wink

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