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Hughes Spruce Goose (Read 1756 times)
Reply #15 - Nov 22nd, 2005 at 8:10pm

congo   Offline
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Quote:
I'm not all to sure of epoxy. I've seen boats well made using traditional methods last well over a century when epoxy compsite hulls have been known to begin falling apart within a decade.

In the classic yacht industry anyone worth their salt will use the same glue Hagar mentioned. It's been around for over a century, will create a bond stronger than the wood it's holding together and it's long term effects are well known.

On the other hand, a wood epoxy composite is only just below kevlar and carbon fibre in terms of strenght to weight. Provided it's done right and long term results do not have to be guarenteed.

You also have to be sure with epoxy that the resin and the hardener are exactly 50/50 and that it's very well mixed or strengh is significantly undermined.

I'm suprised though that epoxy was used on the Spruce Goose. I would have thought she was cold moulded or something like that.



Ok, some misconceptions here again Woodlouse.

Classic yacht design only requires glueing of the spars, traditional boats are built without glue of any sort, relying on metal fastenings and natural fibre caulking for hull integrity.

Epoxy is superior to any of the traditional glues used in the past and has made lightweight timber composite contruction possible. A wood epoxy joint will always fail in the timber, not the glue joint, as you say is the case for other glues, (which I can dispute from personal experience with the materials in question, I have seen resourcinol joints open up, probably due to the critical conditions required for a good bond using resourcinol).

Also, as you say, wood/epoxy composite is only just below the strength of epoxy/carbon/kevlar composites.....TRUE, but aren't those the strongest materials that man has yet developed for practical contruction purposes?

Epoxy has a couple of achilles heels, one is UV light, and the other is heat degradation. It's no surprise then that the Space Shuttle program has had so much trouble with the insulating tiles falling off the Shuttle, they are glued with a special epoxy and no other substance has been found to match or better this use!

Contruction grade epoxies are typically mixed at ratios in the order of 5:1 resin/hardener, and this ratio is definitely critical. Epoxy bonds are dependent on molecular bonds, any unbonded molecules serve only to weaken the structure. Mixing epoxy accurately and thoroughly is the one critical requirement in it's use. Some epoxies are mixed by weight, others by volume, brand dependent, and there is typically, (for boatbuilding applications), a 10% margin of error before the structure is compromised by errors in mixing. Good work practices dictate that there is an area in the workshop with a dedicated bench for epoxy mixing, and a responsible person in the workshop is selected who mixes the glue, and he is responsible for the quality control on that job. It's dangerous to distract this person while he is mixing, lest an error creep into the work. Special epoxy pumps are also available that dispense epoxy resin and hardener on a single pump lever with an adjustable mix ratio, these pumps are highly recommended as then anyone in the workshop can dispense the liquid epoxy accurately.

I hope I've cleared some of this up for you, as more and more epoxy/composites are replacing metal components in aircraft all the time, and for good reasons.
« Last Edit: Nov 22nd, 2005 at 9:15pm by congo »  

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Reply #16 - Nov 23rd, 2005 at 5:44am

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This might have been pointed out earlier in the thread but I think the main advantage of epoxy resin adhesives over traditional glues is their gap filling properties. A perfectly formed joint using older conventional wood glues can be just as strong if not stronger than with one of the modern adhesives.  Most modern boats & glider wings using this form of laminated construction also use a glass fibre cloth covering to seal it from the elements. The glass fibre is bonded to the wood & becomes part of the whole structure making it extremely strong for its weight. I don't know when glass fibre cloth was first invented or how long it's been used for this purpose.

An extra consideration with boats or water planes is water saturation which will affect most forms of construction over a period of time to varying degrees. While epoxy resin is water resistant the wood isn't so unless the epoxy is bonded properly with the wood, deterioration will take place over a period of time. This would not have been considered so important during WWII as most aircraft only had a limited service life.
 

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Reply #17 - Nov 23rd, 2005 at 6:53am

Woodlouse2002   Offline
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Quote:
Cold moulded is epoxy composite construction Woodlouse.

If an epoxy boat is falling apart it's not because of the epoxy, but rather other factors of design loading or lack of maintenance (epoxy is UV sensitive and must be kept painted if exposed to sunlight).

Here is an example of the durability of epoxy:

The Australian Gliding Federation was concerned about the aging Australian glider fleet. Most sailplanes were imported into Australia in the 1970's and were epoxy composite construction. These aircraft have been used privately and in clubs for 4 decades. No prior research had been done on the fatigue and possible lifespan of the material and it's implications on air safety. A matter of some realistic concern!

A common epoxy composite 2 seat sailplane, I believe it was a Janus, was set upon a specially designed stress testing rig at the Melbourne Institute of Technology.

The aircraft was shaken violently up and down for months, I believe several repairs had to be made to the test rig during the trials. Eventually, a small stress crack appeared near the spar root I believe, (I just can't remember the details accurately), and the cause was a  design flaw which resulted in an AD being issued on the type. The failure occured at a simulated 80,000 hours or some other ridiculously high number from memory.

Further testing was carried out for several months after the spar was reparied, and the test rig eventually broke down.

The result was inconclusive as far as the possible lifespan of epoxy composite contruction, the tests showed that hundreds of thousands of hours is probable.

As a result, the epoxy gliders in australia had their Certificates of Airworthiness extended INDEFINITELY subject to 20 year renewels and annual inspections, with the approval of Australia's Civil Aviation Safety Authority, one of the strictest safety organisations in the world, and responsible for Australia's outstanding air safety record.

How about that?   Wink

Cold Moulding is not necessarily epoxy composite and it can be done with any glue including PVA. Fairey Marine used cold moulding exclusivly for their boats in the 50's, 60's and 70's and they never saw a drop of epoxy in their original builds.

As for your story about the glider, thats all well and good. However a test like that does not and cannot take into acount deterioration of the epoxy over time.

But anyway, opinion is divided on the use of epoxy. I know some people who have built their livelyhood with epoxy composites and others who wouldn't touch it to save their lives. And it's those who won't touch it who are looking at survival in the long term and i'm talking centurys here, not decades.

Now I ask this, how many boats and planes do you know of, of epoxy composite construction, that are still in full use after 50 years?
 

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Reply #18 - Nov 24th, 2005 at 7:29am

congo   Offline
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The question is a little unfair Woodlouse, considering the fact that production has only been happening for about 40 years on aircraft, and less on boats. (with the exception of some experimental craft).

I don't need converting, I've owned a traditional wooden vessel myself for twenty years, there's not a drop of epoxy in it. But I've also used epoxy extensively and I know it's strengths and weaknesses.

I really am only just realising that epoxy was around for quite a long time, and I was amazed at the spruce goose using the material. Until just recently, the oldest use I had heard of was in early FRP glider construction, around mid to late fifties, and I have seen those gliders still in regular service here in Australia.

As I said before, problems associated with epoxy construction are design and maintenance related, (though I should have included quality control in this list).

You will find the epoxy sailplane manuals state that ALL surfaces are to be painted WHITE and that a silicone free wax polish be applied at all times. Now, if someone paints the elevator blue or red, then he shouldn't be surprised when it starts to de-laminate. Silicones in polish penetrate the paint/gelcoat finish and actually permeate the laminate, this is dangerous, insidiously so, because if at some stage a repair is required, the repaired structure could have bond failure due to the introduced silicone.

If paint is allowed to wear thin, or colors are used, UV light breaks down the epoxy in no time, severely weaking the structure. These problems are known are they are merely a maintenance issue.

Quality control is important, and as an example I'll cite a well known problem in FRP boat manufacturing. I also have been wondering if this problem is what you may be mistakenly thinking of when you are bagging the use of epoxy.

FRP (Fibreglass Reinforced Plastic) boat construction predominately uses Polyester resins and not epoxies, Polyesters are cheaper and relatively easier for novices to use, (without critical mixing ratios).  Most FRP boats are built in production lines using un-skilled and semi-skilled labour, they get shown briefly how to do a glass layup and off they go building boats, often thinking of things back on the farm or whatever.............

A result of this practice is the phenomenon known as OSMOSIS in FRP boats, where the boat deteriorates at the glass laminate, rapidly and catastrophically. Without going into the exact bio-chemical process of osmosis in boats, suffice to say that inadequate care in the construction process allowed trapped air and unsaturated glass in the laminates, which allowed the osmosis to begin. As far as I'm aware this does not occur in epoxy constructed laminates, it is a product of polyester resins and improper layups. (Especially those boats built with or partially built with chopper gun layups). The chopper gun operator is semi-skilled, the guy rolling out the chopped glass laminate is usually unskilled and brain-dead from the fumes (wax in styrene added to the resin), or soon will be, and he really just wants to get away from the acetone so he can light a cigarette.

Now, I have seen such zombies clearly state that smoking around acetone is no big deal and to prove this fact, he promptly threw a lit cigarette into a bucket of pure acetone beside me, the cigarette fortunately extinguished itself, much to my bemusement at the time.

Now, consider the aircraft factory, where absolute precision manufacturing is being carried out with epoxy composites, I watched a friend of mine carefully and precisely make a laminate at the Jabiru factory in Bundaberg, the next day, the laminate was measured, weighed, and promptly discarded, again much to my amazement, as it was the most precise glass laminate I ever witnessed.     Wink
 

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Reply #19 - Nov 24th, 2005 at 8:02am

Woodlouse2002   Offline
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Quote:
The question is a little unfair Woodlouse, considering the fact that production has only been happening for about 40 years on aircraft, and less on boats. (with the exception of some experimental craft).


This is precisely my point. Epoxy Composites have not been around nearly long enough to be completely trustworthy as the long term effects are simply not known.

As for the issues of FRP (GRP?) and osmosis, that is a completely different kettle of fish and is what you get for owning a tupperware boat. Tongue
 

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Reply #20 - Nov 24th, 2005 at 9:30am

congo   Offline
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Well, I guess epoxy in aircraft construction could be likened to aluminium in aircraft construction with the advent of WW2 fighter planes before alloy was 50 years old. Except perhaps that alloy has a known and relatively short fatigue life.
 

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Reply #21 - Nov 24th, 2005 at 9:47am

congo   Offline
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Actually Woodlouse, you've made me reflect on  my own flying attitudes by the question of trusting construction materials used in aircraft.

I actually feel much safer flying epoxy/composite gliders than the metal ones. This applies to most of the aircraft I fly, which are getting on a bit in age. The newer aircraft I've flown don't concern me as much, and to be truthful, I can't recall ever really pushing a newer type towards the end of the envelope.

I certainly have flown the older gliders to their speed and manuever limits, and I have shied away from doing this in the older alloy planes, It just doesn't "feel" right to me. The glass/epoxy planes don't worry me much at all, but then, this "gut feeling" is only from my own experiences and knowledge I guess.
 

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