Dcunning30 we do not understand how much degration and insults our fellow American Japanese received in that period of history.

They depicted them as monkeys and less than human. I was just seeing a program in the History channel last night about the Japanese Atomic Bomb program. We new very little about it because we never thought they where capabable of producing one.

I have brought this point before about how much we needed to feel superior to them at that time in history.

Dcunning you brought a good up valid point. I love historical discusstions and to exchage differrent Ideas. But I try never to offend anyone on a personal level.

I will try my best not to use such term in the future Dcunning30.

Thank you for bringing it up.

James007

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You know, they did it too.  You know, that's one of the ugly sides of warfare.  How are you able to kill on impulse, someone who under different circumstances, could end up being your best buddy?

The NAZI's had Arian superiority
We had our racial stereotypes of half/blind bucktooth brutes
The Japanese considered the emperor desendent of Anaterasu, and the Japanese people were the superior race with the concept of "All eight corners of the world under one roof" which was their own version of manifest destiny.

I'm guilty of saying 'Japs' I'm just so use to yelling colorful words at my monitor... I'll try my best to say Japanese. 

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Brits, Redcoats. 


Good Hunting,
Brandon

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I see that wartime propaganda is still believed by the masses.

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In some cases this was a difference in culture. Surrender was seen as the ultimate disgrace in the Samurai code. Many Japanese civilians & ordinary soldiers committed suicide rather than surrender as they'd been told & believed that Americans were subhuman. Propaganda is used on both sides during a war to give ordinary people a reason to fight. I believe this is one point of Darryl's topic.

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That seems a little old-fashioned. British soldiers were usually called Tommies after Tommy Atkins. http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/lj/warslj/army_04.shtml I don't know what the Japanese called them. This was usually an affectionate name used by allies & enemy alike. In the same way Americans were called Yanks & also Cowboys by German airmen. Japanese were commonly referred to as Japs or Nips by the Allied troops, neither of which was complimentary.

james007,

I'm reading God's Samurai for the second time and Fuchida give uncanny incite.  I think he was in the best position to give accurate analysis from a Japanese perspective of what went wrong at Midway.  He even cowrote a book on the subject, forwarded by Raymond A Spruance!!!!  Excellent read.  It sits in my library.  Fuchida and Genda both were forward thinkers about airpower, long before it became obvious to everyone else.  Just before the Japanese sortied toward Midway, Fuchida came down with appendicitis, which sidelined him.  So, he ended up laying on the deck of the Akagi taking detailed notes diring the battle, all the way up until the Akagi was bombed.  He even recounts assessing the tactic and technique of the Dauntless bombers as they hurtled bombs toward his ship.  And later on, we was given the task of doing the official post-mortem of what went wrong at Midway and offer reccomendations to correct the errors.  What was interesting was Fuchida stated he wished Japan had 10 Halseys.  Very interesting read.

Fuchida's assessment of Japan's errors at Midway:

* The Alutians invasion was a waste of resources
* Doolittle raid cause Yamamoto to loose his cool and mount the Midway mission too soon, which meant Shokkaku and Zuikkaku couldn't participate
* Main force had no business sailing 300 miles behind Nagumo's attack force.
* Nagumo was the wrong man for the mission.  Yamaguchi should have been in command.
* Ignoring the fact that Tone's scout plane launched late and not take precautions if the Americans were actually in that search sector (which they were)
* BB's and CL's should have provided a ring of protecting fire around the CV's
* Midway would have been an untenable forward base in the first place.  Japan would have to provide resources from the Marianas, but the Americans could reach Midway from Hawaii with long range bombers.

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I am way to old to be PC but consider yourself slapped - its racial slur pure & simple.

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A few things to think about early in WWII.

London 8 million
New York 7.5 million
Tokyo 7 million

Royal Navy

Aircraft Carriers 7
Battleships 15
Heavy Cruisers 15
Submarines 59

Imperial Japanese Navy

In 1909 it launched the  (Large and heavily armoured warship) battleship Satsuma, at the time the largest ship in the world by displacement.

In terms of armament, it was the first navy to mount 14-, 16- and 18.1-inch guns.

In 1922 it launched the  Hosho, the first purpose-designed aircraft carrier in the world.

Aircraft Carriers 10 - the largest and most modern carrier fleet in the world at that time.
Battleships 10  - Yamato the largest and most heavily-armed battleship in history
Heavy Cruisers 18
Submarines 68 - Sentoku I-400 class WWII's largest submarine.  Best WWII torpedo - The Long Lance.

I should have added that the 1-400 class was a submarine aircraft carrier which held 3 Aichi M6A1 Seiran sea-planes.





Not bad for a bunch of guys living in little huts on a hill somewhere  


BEAR

Most people in the US seem to think of WWII in the Far East as the Pacific War & mainly a naval war. This is not surprising as British forces fighting against the Japanese from December 1941 right up to VJ Day consider themselves the Forgotten Army. http://www.burmastar.org.uk/notes.htm
Forgotten then & still forgotten now. Even though they were fighting in terrible conditions & usually badly supplied with inferior equipment they were a long way away from home & events in Europe took precedence. The surrender of Singapore is regarded as one of the greatest defeats in the history of the British Army. This is a perfect example of the mistake of underestimating the enemy. http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/fall_of_singapore.htm Quote:

The Japanese attitude to surrender might explain (but not condone) the terrible treatment suffered by the vast number of PoWs.
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The British Pacific Fleet also seems to be forgotten in much the same way. http://www.nzetc.org/tm/scholarly/tei-WH2Navy-c24.html
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Prelude
The incident began on May 11, 1939 when a Mongolian cavalry unit of some 70-90 men entered the disputed area in search of grazing for their horses, and encountered Manchukuoan cavalry who drove them out of the disputed territory. Two days later the Mongolian force returned and the Manchukoans were unable to evict them.

At this point the Japanese Guandong Army became involved -- a reconnaissance unit under Lt. Col. Yaozo Azuma was sent to engage the Mongolians on 14 May, but they retreated west of the river with few losses. Joseph Stalin ordered STAVKA, the Red Army's high command, to develop a plan for a counterstrike against the Japanese. To lead the attack, Georgy Zhukov, a young officer of promise, was chosen.

The Mongolians and Soviets continued to build up forces in the area, and Azuma's Force returned a week later. This time the Japanese forces were surrounded by superior numbers of Soviet and Mongolian infantry and tanks, and over 28-29 May the Azuma force was destroyed, suffering 8 officers and 97 men killed and one officer and 33 men wounded, for a total of 63% casualties. The Guangdong Army decided that the area was not worth the expenditure of any more Japanese blood.

Throughout June, however, there were continuing reports of Soviet and Mongolian activity on both sides of the river near Nomonhan, and small-scale attacks on isolated Manchukoan units. At the end of the month the local Guandong Army commander, Lt. Gen. Michitaro Komatsubara, was given permission to "expel the invaders". The Japanese operation started on 1 July and was initially successful in crossing the Halha river. However, by the evening of 3 July the attack stalled and the Soviet forces, led by Zhukov, threw the Japanese back over the river. The front then stabilized with only minor actions for the summer.

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The Battle
Finally, in mid-August, Zhukov decided it was time to break the stalemate. He deployed approximately 50,000 Russian and Mongolian troops of the 57th Special Corps to defend the east bank of the Halhin Gol River, then crossed the river on August 20 to attack the elite Japanese with three infantry divisions (70,000 men in all), massed artillery, a tank brigade, and the best planes of the Red Air Force.

Japanese doctrine at the time was for front-line troops to hold their positions with high rates of fire, and await relief actions from the rear. While very successful against the lightly armed Chinese forces, the Soviet tanks turned the tables on them entirely, and the front lines were cut off. Two complete divisions were surrounded while the other forces were scattered. On August 27, the Japanese attempted to break out of the encirclement, but failed. When the surrounded forces refused to surrender, Zhukov wiped them out with artillery and air attacks. The battle ended August 31 with the complete destruction of the Japanese forces.

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Aftermath
Following the battle, the Red Army attacked what remained of the Japanese forces and drove them back into Manchukuo. On September 16, the Japanese asked for a cease-fire and later signed a treaty in which they agreed to abide by the existing border.

Of the 30,000 troops on the Japanese side, 8440 were killed and 8766 wounded. The Red Army committed 57,000 infantry, 498 tanks, and 346 armoured cars to the battle, and claimed total losses (killed and wounded) of 9284 men. After the collapse of the Soviet Union in 1991, new documents about the battle changed the numbers considerably. The actual number of losses in the battle was 23,926, of whom 6,831 killed, 1,143 reported missing and 15,952 wounded. While the Red Army did win the battle, it was not a one sided battle as previously believed.

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