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A humble request - please forgive (Read 624 times)
Aug 17th, 2005 at 10:39am

dcunning30   Offline
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I haven't posted a whole lot here so I consider myself a junior member, even though I sometimes am quite expressive in my opinions.  However, this is a little different.  Please forgive my assertiveness.

Many years ago, I was discussing the Pacific War with a co-worker.  A mutual friend of ours was listening to the discussion, even though she didn't have much to contribute.  My co-worker was referring to Japanese forces, ships, etc.  as Japs.  Our mutual friend happened to be Japanese.  After a while, she protested to our friend for his usage of the word "Jap".  Now, we all knew our friend didn't have a single ill intent in mind, he just didn't know any better.  But the word's usage was offensive to her.  I understood that, especially considering the usage of that word during the war was a term to Japanese as n*gger is to blacks.

Now, I'm the last person to be PC, in fact I hate political correctness.  But refraining from using the word, Jap seems to me as being just good manners.  The reason why I'm bringing this up is I've seen it's usage here as we discuss the Pacific War.  Upon reading the context of it's usage, I'm confident those using it had no ill-will, just they were describing planes, ships, etc.  Once again, I humbly submit this request to you fellow posters.  Thanks for reading.

Darryl

BTW, If you think I'm being wound up too tightly, I can understand that, and I apologize.
« Last Edit: Aug 17th, 2005 at 11:54am by dcunning30 »  

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Reply #1 - Aug 17th, 2005 at 11:26am

james007   Offline
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Dcunning30 we do not understand how much degration and insults our fellow American Japanese received in that period of history.

They depicted them as monkeys and less than human. I was just seeing a program in the History channel last night about the Japanese Atomic Bomb program. We new very little about it because we never thought they where capabable of producing one.

I have brought this point before about how much we needed to feel superior to them at that time in history.

Dcunning you brought a good up valid point. I love historical discusstions and to exchage differrent Ideas. But I try never to offend anyone on a personal level.

I will try my best not to use such term in the future Dcunning30.

Thank you for bringing it up.

James007
 
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Reply #2 - Aug 17th, 2005 at 11:57am

dcunning30   Offline
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I saw that too!  Who'da thunk it that the Japanese exploded an experimental a-bomb?  But with the way things were after the war and currently today, we may never learn one way or another.  The Russians aren't talking, and certainly North Korea won't permit access to that area.
 

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Reply #3 - Aug 17th, 2005 at 12:07pm

dcunning30   Offline
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Quote:
I have brought this point before about how much we needed to feel superior to them at that time in history.



You know, they did it too.  You know, that's one of the ugly sides of warfare.  How are you able to kill on impulse, someone who under different circumstances, could end up being your best buddy?

The NAZI's had Arian superiority
We had our racial stereotypes of half/blind bucktooth brutes
The Japanese considered the emperor desendent of Anaterasu, and the Japanese people were the superior race with the concept of "All eight corners of the world under one roof" which was their own version of manifest destiny.
 

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Reply #4 - Aug 17th, 2005 at 1:29pm

james007   Offline
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You are right Dcunning. They where probably worst than us. Lets not forget that the Japanese military killed millions of people during the war by design.

That was then and now we have grown I hope. The only difference is that I hold our self to a higher standards of value since we have incorporated Cristian Judeo values to our our sociaty as our main standard of value.

Thank you

James007
 
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Reply #5 - Aug 17th, 2005 at 4:20pm

Corsair Freak   Offline
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I'm guilty of saying 'Japs' I'm just so use to yelling colorful words at my monitor... I'll try my best to say Japanese.  Wink
 
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Reply #6 - Aug 17th, 2005 at 7:38pm

stiz   Offline
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First of if i offend anyone please slap me!

I dont like being PC and think it just softens words for people who cant take being offened.

To me the word Jap is just a cut down version of Japanese, to me its just another word like Yankie for Americans, Jerry for German etc (know any for british go ahead and say it cos i cant think of one). I know people take offence by these sometimes so i try not to use them in front of them.   

Also everyone i have met (mainly young americans in this case, everyone else i now couldn't care less) thinks that the Japanese are savages and not human, what they seem to forget is that they belived strongly and so acted on thier belifes (i'm not explaining this very well am i??) and that they were that of the samuri (spelling??) and that dieing for thier country would be of great benifit to the country. Just because in most cases instead of throwing up thier arms they faught to the death does not mean they are savage, so they used different methods of torture etc its just 2 different worlds meeting. Rember that america had all the mod cons of the age most of Japan was still little huts on a hill somewhere.

If i am wrong with any of the above please correct me but to my knowledge its all true.
 
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Reply #7 - Aug 17th, 2005 at 8:24pm

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Quote:
(know any for british go ahead and say it cos i cant think of one)


Brits, Redcoats.  Smiley


Good Hunting,
Brandon
 
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Reply #8 - Aug 18th, 2005 at 12:07am

james007   Offline
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I"m Stiz but could not disagree with you more. Japan was not a poor little country pretending to be a world power at the beginning of the war.

Japan was a World power to be recon with. It had a well dicipline Army. One of the world best air force.
It also had the best navy in the world.

Yes the best navy period at the beginning of the war. How can you say this when every one knows the Royal navy was the best in the world in 1941.

Well let me explain it in simple form. In the mid thirties the major powers in the world sign the first of its kind arms control treaties.

The Japanese simply cheated and build the biggest Battleships of that era. They also had the best naval fighter in the world. The famouse Zero. The first capable to fight on equal terms the land fighters.

Excellent Dive Bombers and Torpedos. A more modern naval doctrine base on the aircraft carrier instead of the Battleships.

They where the first to have a more modern concept for military beach landings. 

The first to use leapfrogging landings behind enemy lines.

They practice it quite often during the Chinese Invation in the thirties.

Thats how they won the Battle of Shangai in 1937. They leapfrogg behind the Chinese lines and unhinged their defences.

Their Oriental Blitz of 1941 and early 1942 was a master peice that has been poorly study. Perhaps because it was not executed by a western power or becuase we where embarrass by it. It has not receive the same attention that the German Blitz of Europe has.

The Japanese where tough and a determine enemy. When condition where favorable and they where well fed and lead they where amoun the best troops in the world.

Your mentality have the the same mind set of the British had in 1941. They though that one British soldier was worth ten Japanese.

Well the Britain received it worst defeat in its military history in the Signapore campaign.

Yes they where strange enemy from our point view. They did things different with strage and sometimes hard to understand tatics.

But overall they probably where the toughest enemy the allies ever met in the Battlefield.

So you see our troops and fighting men from all the nations that parcicipated in this Theater of war deserve all our respect and honor for defeating such a enemy.

I recomend for all of us to read more about this and all the other Theaters of war in World war 2.

The more we learn the more we will appreciate what that genertion did for us today.

Never undereastimate anybody or nation or it could End up bitting you.

You now where.

This only a warning! LoL

This just a opinion

James007















 
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Reply #9 - Aug 18th, 2005 at 2:44am

Hagar   Offline
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Quote:
Also everyone i have met (mainly young americans in this case, everyone else i now couldn't care less) thinks that the Japanese are savages and not human

I see that wartime propaganda is still believed by the masses.

Quote:
Just because in most cases instead of throwing up thier arms they faught to the death does not mean they are savage,

In some cases this was a difference in culture. Surrender was seen as the ultimate disgrace in the Samurai code. Many Japanese civilians & ordinary soldiers committed suicide rather than surrender as they'd been told & believed that Americans were subhuman. Propaganda is used on both sides during a war to give ordinary people a reason to fight. I believe this is one point of Darryl's topic.

Quote:
Brits, Redcoats. Wink

That seems a little old-fashioned. British soldiers were usually called Tommies after Tommy Atkins. http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/lj/warslj/army_04.shtml I don't know what the Japanese called them. This was usually an affectionate name used by allies & enemy alike. In the same way Americans were called Yanks & also Cowboys by German airmen. Japanese were commonly referred to as Japs or Nips by the Allied troops, neither of which was complimentary.
 

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Reply #10 - Aug 18th, 2005 at 12:41pm

Corsair Freak   Offline
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That's the one I was thinkin' of... I just couldn't think of it at the time.
 
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Reply #11 - Aug 18th, 2005 at 3:01pm

dcunning30   Offline
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james007,

I'm reading God's Samurai for the second time and Fuchida give uncanny incite.  I think he was in the best position to give accurate analysis from a Japanese perspective of what went wrong at Midway.  He even cowrote a book on the subject, forwarded by Raymond A Spruance!!!!  Excellent read.  It sits in my library.  Fuchida and Genda both were forward thinkers about airpower, long before it became obvious to everyone else.  Just before the Japanese sortied toward Midway, Fuchida came down with appendicitis, which sidelined him.  So, he ended up laying on the deck of the Akagi taking detailed notes diring the battle, all the way up until the Akagi was bombed.  He even recounts assessing the tactic and technique of the Dauntless bombers as they hurtled bombs toward his ship.  And later on, we was given the task of doing the official post-mortem of what went wrong at Midway and offer reccomendations to correct the errors.  What was interesting was Fuchida stated he wished Japan had 10 Halseys.  Very interesting read.

Fuchida's assessment of Japan's errors at Midway:

* The Alutians invasion was a waste of resources
* Doolittle raid cause Yamamoto to loose his cool and mount the Midway mission too soon, which meant Shokkaku and Zuikkaku couldn't participate
* Main force had no business sailing 300 miles behind Nagumo's attack force.
* Nagumo was the wrong man for the mission.  Yamaguchi should have been in command.
* Ignoring the fact that Tone's scout plane launched late and not take precautions if the Americans were actually in that search sector (which they were)
* BB's and CL's should have provided a ring of protecting fire around the CV's
* Midway would have been an untenable forward base in the first place.  Japan would have to provide resources from the Marianas, but the Americans could reach Midway from Hawaii with long range bombers.
« Last Edit: Aug 18th, 2005 at 11:38pm by dcunning30 »  

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Reply #12 - Aug 18th, 2005 at 11:33pm

dcunning30   Offline
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I kinda jumped ahead regarding the Halsey comment.  Fuchida said that later on in reference to the carrier raids that Halsey had been conducting.  Spruance was also involved in carrier raids, but Fuchida recognized Halsey's agressiveness, and also Spruance's methodical calculations.  And Fuchida considered what Japan needed was an agressive admiral.  Japan had one in Yamaguchi, but steeped in the Bushido code, Yamaguchi chose to go down with the Hiryu at Midway.

Now, Yamamoto was an agressive admiral, probably too much of a gambler for Japan's own good.  Contrast that with what Nimitz advised Fletcher and Spruance prior to Midway:  Use a doctrine of inflicting maximum damage on the enemy only when it appears risk to your own forces appears at a minimum. (my own words, but that was the point Nimitz made)

Problem was Yamamoto groomed his successor to toe the line, and that's exactly what Koga did.  And that was exactly what Japan DIDN'T need.
 

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Reply #13 - Aug 19th, 2005 at 12:31am

AvHistory   Offline
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Quote:
First of if i offend anyone please slap me!


I am way to old to be PC but consider yourself slapped - its racial slur pure & simple.

Quote:
Rember that america had all the mod cons of the age most of Japan was still little huts on a hill somewhere.  


A few things to think about early in WWII.

London 8 million
New York 7.5 million
Tokyo 7 million

Royal Navy

Aircraft Carriers 7
Battleships 15
Heavy Cruisers 15
Submarines 59

Imperial Japanese Navy

In 1909 it launched the  (Large and heavily armoured warship) battleship Satsuma, at the time the largest ship in the world by displacement.

In terms of armament, it was the first navy to mount 14-, 16- and 18.1-inch guns.

In 1922 it launched the  Hosho, the first purpose-designed aircraft carrier in the world.

Aircraft Carriers 10 - the largest and most modern carrier fleet in the world at that time.
Battleships 10  - Yamato the largest and most heavily-armed battleship in history
Heavy Cruisers 18
Submarines 68 - Sentoku I-400 class WWII's largest submarine.  Best WWII torpedo - The Long Lance.

I should have added that the 1-400 class was a submarine aircraft carrier which held 3 Aichi M6A1 Seiran sea-planes.

...

...

Not bad for a bunch of guys living in little huts on a hill somewhere  Wink


BEAR
« Last Edit: Aug 19th, 2005 at 12:45pm by AvHistory »  
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Reply #14 - Aug 19th, 2005 at 1:30am

james007   Offline
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Bear thank you for your input. I appreciate it very much.
What the average amature historian and I believe even many professional historian do not realize is that  Japan was a Legitimate world power.

Yes Germany was the most powerful Axis power during the war but Japan was right behind it in power and influence. Unlike Italy, Japan was very much fear and respected in the Far East and in the World.

Even Russia feared the Japanese during the war. Their best arm and train Army was the Red Baron Army station in the far East.

The respect when so far that Stalin did not dare to moved it to the West even dow the German where at door steps of Moscow. He did not moved them until Surgi his master spy in Japan reported that Japan was not going to attack Russia but instead they where planning to attack the Americans.

They say that the Russians crush the Japanese in their incident on Outer Mongolia. The truth is that the Russian did repulse the Japanese from Mongolia in that incident but it was not the easy overwhelming victory they have been portraying to us Westeners for dacades.

They both developed a healthy respest for each other after that encounter. Japan feared the Russians and Russia had a deep respect of Japan that lasted throughout the war.

I would like for you guys to read this information that found on that inccident.

1.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet-Japanese_Border_War_%281939%29

Now you will see what I mean.

You guys may not know this. But the best Pilots in the US where not sent to European Theater but to the Pacific Theater.

The only reason I"m writting this post is not to glorify Japan but instead to show what kind of enemy our men  in that Theater had to face and to give our men the proper respect they deserve for been up to the test and to valify their sacrifices and what they had to endure .

To show the readers what it took for our fighting men to fight in this theater of war.

I believe that thruogh the years in has become a common demeaner to think that the Japanese where a inferior fanatical fighter that was relative easy to beat. Especialy in the air war.

Nothing in the world is more wrong than this way of thinking.

I one day the truth will come out.

This has been only a opinion

Thank you for reading this post.

I hope to hear from you

James007
 
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