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Soviet Attack Hastened End of World War II (Read 694 times)
Reply #15 -
Aug 16
th
, 2005 at 4:49am
H
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Quote:
Wasn't there some documentary awhile back about Allied Pacific atrocities?
There's two sides to every page...
The "condoned" equivelent is not comparable. Revenge is not a scarcity but there are 'criminal' elements in all societies that will use the "they did it first" excuse against the innocent (civilians, etc.).
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Reply #16 -
Aug 16
th
, 2005 at 5:07am
Minotaur
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The "condoned" equivelent is not comparable. Revenge is not a scarcity but there are 'criminal' elements in all societies that will use the "they did it first" excuse against the innocent (civilians, etc.).
Well said and I agree with you on that point. During WWII even the allied normal carpet bombing was indiscriminate and they purposely targeted civilian targets for the terror effect. Look at the fire bombing of Dresden and Tokyo. The unfortunate fact of war is it's not only hell for the combatants, but also for the non-combatants. The mind set of war is, "You attack me, I attack you". But even in war there are certain things you shouldn't do like attack hospitals, kill POW's and injured soldiers. Hence the Geneva Convention rules of warfare that dictate these rules. Germany, Japan and Russia openly ignored the Geneva Convention. The allies tried to adhere to them, but there are always going to be those that get frustrated or angry and use what ever force is necessary to get information that is vital to saving their countrymen.
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Reply #17 -
Aug 16
th
, 2005 at 5:48am
Hagar
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Quote:
rules of warfare
I always found it puzzling that you can have 'rules of war'. This is total war on a grand scale & most aggressors will not abide by any rules. Apart from things like treatment of prisoners this puts those that do adhere to them at an immediate disadvantage.
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Reply #18 -
Aug 16
th
, 2005 at 7:01am
Scorpiоn
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Quote:
The "condoned" equivelent is not comparable. Revenge is not a scarcity but there are 'criminal' elements in all societies that will use the "they did it first" excuse against the innocent (civilians, etc.).
I say it more in the sense that we (The Allies (That being America and West Europe)) shouldn't mount ourselves too high on our horse, as we're not so pure as we like to make ourselves out to be.
Definitely not justifying Japanese crimes.
The Devil's Advocate.
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Reply #19 -
Aug 16
th
, 2005 at 7:35am
Minotaur
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I always found it puzzling that you can have 'rules of war'. This is total war on a grand scale & most aggressors will not abide by any rules. Apart from things like treatment of prisoners this puts those that do adhere to them at an immediate disadvantage.
You are definitely correct on that point. Germans and especially the Japanese saw the Geneva Conventions as useless and a sign of weakness. They figured, if your going to fight a war, fight a war. If you are to win a war, you must become war.
The Japanese didn't believe in surrender and even after the 2 A-bombs were dropped. There were radical eliminates in the Japanese military that refused to even consider surrender. These people tried to prevent the Emperor from recording his capitulation on the 2 discs that were to be broadcast. They tried to overthrow the Emperor and his government in order to continue the war and to avoid the shame of surrender. Luckily for the Japanese and the Allies, they failed. If it hadn't failed, I can't imagine the chaos and the amount of lives that it would have cost on both sides to invade Japan.
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Reply #20 -
Aug 16
th
, 2005 at 8:20am
Heretic
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Quote:
Germans and especially the Japanese saw the Geneva Conventions as useless and a sign of weakness. They figured, if your going to fight a war, fight a war. If you are to win a war, you must become war.
If the Germans really ignored any "standards" of warfare, there would have been no surviving allied PoWs. Plus, people like Douglas Bader would have been killed instantly , rather than being invited for dinner with Galland.
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Reply #21 -
Aug 16
th
, 2005 at 8:24am
ozzy72
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The Gestapo and the SS ignored the standards expected, the other German services tended to respect their prisoners (of course every camp had the odd loon for a goon). A good example of this was the camp commandant at Stalag Luft III when he had to tell the British prisoners that 50 of their colleagues had been murdered by the Gestapo following the Great Escape. Apparently he was nearly as rough as the British over this news. An honourable man....
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Reply #22 -
Aug 16
th
, 2005 at 8:37am
Heretic
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The SS and Gestapo were the zits of the german miltary. Formidable fighters, but as whacked in the head as their commanders.
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Reply #23 -
Aug 16
th
, 2005 at 9:04am
ozzy72
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I'd never thought of them as acne before
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Reply #24 -
Aug 18
th
, 2005 at 2:37am
H
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2003: the year NH couldn't
save face...
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Quote:
Heretic: The SS and Gestapo were the zits of the german miltary. Formidable fighters, but as whacked in the head as their commanders.
ozzy72: I'd never thought of them as acne before
Ozzy, I rather question whether you've never thought of them as
festering pimples
, howbeit, perhaps, not in such a
polite
term
. As to the SS and Gestgapo being "formidable 'whacked in the head' fighters": rather reminiscent of their ancestral cousins' "
berserkers
"? Rage and insanity both add a certain
numbness
to the effects of battle.
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Reply #25 -
Sep 13
th
, 2005 at 1:10pm
dcunning30
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According to Mitsuo Fuchida, the Soviet attack was a doublecross. In a Japanese phrase, the Soviets were "the thief at the fire", which is a huge insult. Although, the Soviet attack contributed to the watershed of events that led to the Japanese surrender, the primary actor for the surrender was the Emperor. The militarists were prepared to fight to the last, Soviet attack or not. The one event that caused Hirohito to make his unprescedented action were the two atomic bombs. It wasn't the deaths from the bombs, especially since the B29 raids were killing more japanese citizens. It was the shock factor of one bomb rendering so much destruction. Prior to the A-Bombs, Hirohito had made it known, in his traditionally subtle, and court-etiquette manner that he wanted the war to come to an end. But after the A-Bombs, he resolved that he must go against tradition and take personal action.
I never did buy the Soviet theory, and after re-reading Fuchida's autobiography - as dictated to Gordon Prange, I'm convinced it's wrong. And besides, Fuchida was there, and he had the extremely rare honor of being a mere captain and participating in the imperial court, not once, but twice.
TURKEY TROTS TO WATER GG WHERE IS RPT WHERE IS TASK FORCE 34 RR THE WORLD WONDERS
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Reply #26 -
Sep 13
th
, 2005 at 1:14pm
dcunning30
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ozzy72
I agree. Especially how the Luftwaffe were honor-bound and treated their fellow airmen prisoners with respect.
TURKEY TROTS TO WATER GG WHERE IS RPT WHERE IS TASK FORCE 34 RR THE WORLD WONDERS
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Reply #27 -
Sep 19
th
, 2005 at 1:29pm
dcunning30
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Quote:
Wasn't there some documentary awhile back about Allied Pacific atrocities?
There's two sides to every page...
I never heard of such a documentary. However, the marines on Guadalcanal learned the hard way that the Japanese soldier could not be counted upon to surrender when defeated, or treat their prisoners decently when captured, even if they allowed their prisoners to live. So, when fighting the Japanese soldiers, the marines gave no quarter, nor asked for any. It was how both sides treated each other. The marines also quickly learned that many Japanese soldiers, when severely wounded would wait for a marine approach himself, then detonate a gernade, taking himself out as well as his would-be rescuer. So the marines just shot the wounded enemy rather than risk their own demise. However, when it was safe, the marines did take prisoners, but Japanese prisoners were very rare.
Now, if anyone construes this as atrocities, then they are revising history.
TURKEY TROTS TO WATER GG WHERE IS RPT WHERE IS TASK FORCE 34 RR THE WORLD WONDERS
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