Search the archive:
YaBB - Yet another Bulletin Board
 
   
 
Pages: 1 2 
Send Topic Print
Soviet Attack Hastened End of World War II (Read 694 times)
Reply #15 - Aug 16th, 2005 at 4:49am

H   Offline
Colonel
2003: the year NH couldn't
save face...
NH, USA

Gender: male
Posts: 6837
*****
 
Quote:
Wasn't there some documentary awhile back about Allied Pacific atrocities?
There's two sides to every page...

The "condoned" equivelent is not comparable. Revenge is not a scarcity but there are 'criminal' elements in all societies that will use the "they did it first" excuse against the innocent (civilians, etc.).
 
IP Logged
 
Reply #16 - Aug 16th, 2005 at 5:07am

Minotaur   Ex Member
I Like Flight Simulation!

Gender: male
*
 
Quote:
The "condoned" equivelent is not comparable. Revenge is not a scarcity but there are 'criminal' elements in all societies that will use the "they did it first" excuse against the innocent (civilians, etc.).


Well said and I agree with you on that point. During WWII even the allied normal carpet bombing was indiscriminate and they purposely targeted civilian targets for the terror effect. Look at the fire bombing of Dresden and Tokyo. The unfortunate fact of war is it's not only hell for the combatants, but also for the non-combatants. The mind set of war is, "You attack me, I attack you". But even in war there are certain things you shouldn't do like attack hospitals, kill POW's and injured soldiers. Hence the Geneva Convention rules of warfare that dictate these rules. Germany, Japan and Russia openly ignored the Geneva Convention. The allies tried to adhere to them, but there are always going to be those that get frustrated or angry and use what ever force is necessary to get information that is vital to saving their countrymen.
 
IP Logged
 
Reply #17 - Aug 16th, 2005 at 5:48am

Hagar   Offline
Colonel
My Spitfire Girl
Costa Geriatrica

Posts: 33159
*****
 
Quote:
rules of warfare

I always found it puzzling that you can have 'rules of war'. This is total war on a grand scale & most aggressors will not abide by any rules. Apart from things like treatment of prisoners this puts those that do adhere to them at an immediate disadvantage.
 

...

Founder & Sole Member - Grumpy's Over the Hill Club for Veteran Virtual Aviators
Member of the Fox Four Group

Need help? Try Grumpy's Lair

My photo gallery
IP Logged
 
Reply #18 - Aug 16th, 2005 at 7:01am

Scorpiоn   Offline
Colonel
Take it easy!
The Alamo

Gender: male
Posts: 4496
*****
 
Quote:
The "condoned" equivelent is not comparable. Revenge is not a scarcity but there are 'criminal' elements in all societies that will use the "they did it first" excuse against the innocent (civilians, etc.).

I say it more in the sense that we (The Allies (That being America and West Europe)) shouldn't mount ourselves too high on our horse, as we're not so pure as we like to make ourselves out to be.

Definitely not justifying Japanese crimes.
 

The Devil's Advocate.&&...
IP Logged
 
Reply #19 - Aug 16th, 2005 at 7:35am

Minotaur   Ex Member
I Like Flight Simulation!

Gender: male
*
 
Quote:
I always found it puzzling that you can have 'rules of war'. This is total war on a grand scale & most aggressors will not abide by any rules. Apart from things like treatment of prisoners this puts those that do adhere to them at an immediate disadvantage.


You are definitely correct on that point. Germans and especially the Japanese saw the Geneva Conventions as useless and a sign of weakness. They figured, if your going to fight a war, fight a war. If you are to win a war, you must become war.

The Japanese didn't believe in surrender and even after the 2 A-bombs were dropped. There were radical eliminates in the Japanese military that refused to even consider surrender. These people tried to prevent the Emperor from recording his capitulation on the 2 discs that were to be broadcast. They tried to overthrow the Emperor and his government in order to continue the war and to avoid the shame of surrender. Luckily for the Japanese and the Allies, they failed. If it hadn't failed, I can't imagine the chaos and the amount of lives that it would have cost on both sides to invade Japan.
 
IP Logged
 
Reply #20 - Aug 16th, 2005 at 8:20am
Heretic   Ex Member

 
Quote:
Germans and especially the Japanese saw the Geneva Conventions as useless and a sign of weakness. They figured, if your going to fight a war, fight a war. If you are to win a war, you must become war.


If the Germans really ignored any "standards" of warfare, there would have been no surviving allied PoWs. Plus, people like Douglas Bader would have been killed instantly , rather than being invited for dinner with Galland. Roll Eyes
 
IP Logged
 
Reply #21 - Aug 16th, 2005 at 8:24am

ozzy72   Offline
Global Moderator
Pretty scary huh?
Madsville

Gender: male
Posts: 37122
*****
 
The Gestapo and the SS ignored the standards expected, the other German services tended to respect their prisoners (of course every camp had the odd loon for a goon). A good example of this was the camp commandant at Stalag Luft III when he had to tell the British prisoners that 50 of their colleagues had been murdered by the Gestapo following the Great Escape. Apparently he was nearly as rough as the British over this news. An honourable man....
 

...
There are two types of aeroplane, Spitfires and everything else that wishes it was a Spitfire!
IP Logged
 
Reply #22 - Aug 16th, 2005 at 8:37am
Heretic   Ex Member

 
The SS and Gestapo were the zits of the german miltary. Formidable fighters, but as whacked in the head as their commanders.
 
IP Logged
 
Reply #23 - Aug 16th, 2005 at 9:04am

ozzy72   Offline
Global Moderator
Pretty scary huh?
Madsville

Gender: male
Posts: 37122
*****
 
I'd never thought of them as acne before Grin Grin Grin
 

...
There are two types of aeroplane, Spitfires and everything else that wishes it was a Spitfire!
IP Logged
 
Reply #24 - Aug 18th, 2005 at 2:37am

H   Offline
Colonel
2003: the year NH couldn't
save face...
NH, USA

Gender: male
Posts: 6837
*****
 
Quote:
Heretic: The SS and Gestapo were the zits of the german miltary. Formidable fighters, but as whacked in the head as their commanders.
ozzy72: I'd never thought of them as acne before Grin Grin Grin

Ozzy, I rather question whether you've never thought of them as festering pimples, howbeit, perhaps, not in such a polite term Wink. As to the SS and Gestgapo being "formidable 'whacked in the head' fighters": rather reminiscent of their ancestral cousins' "berserkers"? Rage and insanity both add a certain numbness to the effects of battle.
 
IP Logged
 
Reply #25 - Sep 13th, 2005 at 1:10pm

dcunning30   Offline
Colonel
This is me......really!!!!
The Land of Nod

Gender: male
Posts: 1612
*****
 
According to Mitsuo Fuchida, the Soviet attack was a doublecross.  In a Japanese phrase, the Soviets were "the thief at the fire", which is a huge insult.  Although, the Soviet attack contributed to the watershed of events that led to the Japanese surrender, the primary actor for the surrender was the Emperor.  The militarists were prepared to fight to the last, Soviet attack or not.  The one event that caused Hirohito to make his unprescedented action were the two atomic bombs.  It wasn't the deaths from the bombs, especially since the B29 raids were killing more japanese citizens.  It was the shock factor of one bomb rendering so much destruction.  Prior to the A-Bombs, Hirohito had made it known, in his traditionally subtle, and court-etiquette manner that he wanted the war to come to an end.  But after the A-Bombs, he resolved that he must go against tradition and take personal action.

I never did buy the Soviet theory, and after re-reading Fuchida's autobiography - as dictated to Gordon Prange, I'm convinced it's wrong.  And besides, Fuchida was there, and he had the extremely rare honor of being a mere captain and participating in the imperial court, not once, but twice.
 

TURKEY TROTS TO WATER GG WHERE IS RPT WHERE IS TASK FORCE 34 RR THE WORLD WONDERS
IP Logged
 
Reply #26 - Sep 13th, 2005 at 1:14pm

dcunning30   Offline
Colonel
This is me......really!!!!
The Land of Nod

Gender: male
Posts: 1612
*****
 
ozzy72


I agree.  Especially how the Luftwaffe were honor-bound and treated their fellow airmen prisoners with respect.
 

TURKEY TROTS TO WATER GG WHERE IS RPT WHERE IS TASK FORCE 34 RR THE WORLD WONDERS
IP Logged
 
Reply #27 - Sep 19th, 2005 at 1:29pm

dcunning30   Offline
Colonel
This is me......really!!!!
The Land of Nod

Gender: male
Posts: 1612
*****
 
Quote:
Wasn't there some documentary awhile back about Allied Pacific atrocities?

There's two sides to every page...


I never heard of such a documentary.  However, the marines on Guadalcanal learned the hard way that the Japanese soldier could not be counted upon to surrender when defeated, or treat their prisoners decently when captured, even if they allowed their prisoners to live.  So, when fighting  the Japanese soldiers, the marines gave no quarter, nor asked for any.  It was how both sides treated each other.  The marines also quickly learned that many Japanese soldiers, when severely wounded would wait for a marine approach himself, then detonate a gernade, taking himself out as well as his would-be rescuer.  So the marines just shot the wounded enemy rather than risk their own demise.  However, when it was safe, the marines did take prisoners, but Japanese prisoners were very rare.

Now, if anyone construes this as atrocities, then they are revising history.
 

TURKEY TROTS TO WATER GG WHERE IS RPT WHERE IS TASK FORCE 34 RR THE WORLD WONDERS
IP Logged
 
Pages: 1 2 
Send Topic Print