I recently got into a discusion with someone over the late WW2 planes of Germany.  They argued that the ME262 would have changed the war, if Germany had held the ground war better.  And then went on to bring up other German planes on the horizon.

But as the conversation carried on,  I came to the conclusion,  that the only plane that would have made a difference is a long range jet Bomber.  Simply because the Late war piston planes that the Allied forces were putting up,  out classed just about all Jets,  well into the Korean war even.

The F8F Bearcat held all speed to climb records until I believe the Starfighter came along?  I know it was a jet with an after burner that finally beat it, but the Bearcat could out climb Sabers and early Migs.  Sure the top speed wasnt there,  But with the Bearcats turning radius,  no Jet was going to get a clean shot off anyway.

Same can be said for the Sea Fury,  Spitfire MkXIV (and up)  Late model Corsairs and Mustangs.  In the Korean War,  a Corsair and SeaFury even had kills vs Migs.

And as for Attack planes or Close Air support, the Tigercats and Skyraiders both were excellent airplanes.  Neither would match up against a jet well,  especially not the Skyraider,  BUT,  in the skyraiders case, it was used well into the Vietnam era even, because it did its job better then any jets of its time.   And the Tigercat would have made such a great close air support plane,  if it would have been given the chance, that it went on to be one of the best close air support FIRE fighters in its post war life.

So i ask the flight sim world,  many of whom im sure have all taken spins in many of these late war planes.

Would the ME262, HE162, ME163, or any other early Jet the Axis were flying, really have made THAT big of a difference in the air war?

I personaly dont think so.

I'm sure that large numbers of German jets appearing over Europe in 1944/45 would have had a major impact but such was the allies ability to produce and design new types late in the war that it would not have been long before the Meteor, Vampire and P-80 started coming along in numbers to match. The 262 was arguably a better aircraft that all the early allied jets but I think the ability to out produce the Germans and the need that would have been created to improve the allied jets to match their opponents would have swung the tide back again in favour of the allies.
Had the allies not had a jet on the horizon and Germany been able to get the 262 into mass production and squadron service by early 1944, I’m sure things would have been very different.

Well, a bomber? The things the Me262 were good for are:

-bomber interception fighter

-fighter bomber (Me262A-1 U4)

-anti-ship (Me262A-1 U4)

Why do I think of these? I fly the Me262A U4 alot on CFS3 )

Any others you have I could add to my list...

Metallurgy was a problem. And Hitler must have been another bomb nut. He hated calling it a fighter-bomber, instead:

Lol! What a nutcase!

Hadgar you hit it on the nose. I could not have written a better post than you have. I agree with everything you have written on the subject.

What bother me Hadgar is that many aviation historians still insist on that thesis that Hitler made decisive mistake when he choce to make the Me262 in a fighter Bomber.

The facts are that the Me262 was not going to make a hip of a difference in the wars outcome.

The war was decided when Hitler declared war on the USA and Japan lost the battle of Midway.

I have alway been surprise on how many LW apologist are out there. Always looking for excuses on why Germany lost the war.

I did not mention the Invation of Russia because that was Hitler"s intention all along. Jun 22,1941 was his window of opportunity, period.

Yes that was a big mistake but Germany was doom by the Nazi regime to such a mistake.

Thank you Hadgar for your post again.

The more we learn about World war two the more we may appreciate this and the other Simulators base on that war.

James007

Top speed & rate of climb are not necessarily a big advantage, providing you have adequate warning. Speed can actually be a disadvantage in close combat as the early jet pilots (& some high-performance pistons) found when attacking slower piston-engined types. I think I read somewhere that the Me 262 had no airbrakes so this would give the pilot less time to aim & fire, meaning he would have to be a pretty good shot to do enough damage on a single pass. A big prop acts as an airbrake when you reduce throttle which means you have more control over the speed when lining up on a target. Of course, by slowing down when attacking bombers you give the defending gunners more time to shoot back. In the case of the Allied daylight bomber raids there should have been plenty of time for the conventional piston-engined interceptors to do the job. I think the problem was in numbers, of both aircraft & trained pilots.

That was the big advantage in the Tigercat (although it never got to use it, as by the time it got into combat it was the Jet ages)

It supposedly can out accelerate anything.  And if youve ever flown this one
http://www.simviation.com/files/2cfs/Cfstig10.zip
Youll see what I mean.  Course you can also pull out of a dive going over 500 in it with ease,  which wouldnt happen,  but cant complain too much.


Heres a cool page i found on the Korean air war,  has a nice right up on the Corsair and Tigercats in Korea skies.

http://kalaniosullivan.com/KunsanAB/VMF513/Howitwasa1ac.html

Don't think that any plane had changed (or actually has for that matter) the outcome of the war, not even the Me262 if it had been given priority early what shure would have put her in service 2 years earlier.
The war was fought won and lost in the east.
The P-51 as a warwinner is a bit of a myth.
By the time it appeared over european skies had the Luftwaffe long been a shadow of itself, attrition being the name of the game.
At the end of the day it was the  industrial and manpower of 500 million people economies versus a 60 million people ecnomy

Lets not forget Hawker, that the Japenese had a version of the ME262 that they too were usen. 
The Tigercat was flying its first combat mission/sortie the day the Japanese official surrendered, and the Bearcats were on a carrier on there way,  So give another month or so, and the Cats could have very well flew up against the Japenese ME262.....   And that is infact what my topic that i started is about      

Alot of people will say "If the war lasted longer, the German Jets would have made a big impact"

BUT I say they wouldnt have, as the piston fighters that were coming out late in the war,  including the ones that would have com out if the war went on longer,  would have matched up well against these German planes.

Infact,  im going to say that if the Germans had the Tigercat or Bearcat, that they would have made a larger impact,  as putting the 2 up together would have made a great bomber formation interceptor.  the Tigercat goes after the bombers with its 8 guns,  and the Bearcats keep the fighters off them.



Im going to agree with both James and Mathias on the last point.

Ive often felt the P-51 was a bit over blown.  But at the same time its still a great plane.  I think the problem is,  is that the Germans were already so drained by the time the Mustangs were cranking into Germany.  sure it was still there best pilots,  but these guys were flying for how many years in war already?  and how many missions a day?  Where the US pilots were fresh, and hungry.   And lets not forget the Germans "bail out and you can fly again" mentalitiy.   

Ill agree that the P-51, P-47, and Spits were better then the German planes.

But id take the Corsair, over them,   and of course the Tigercat (my personal fav)

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I can see several flaws.

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First, I assume you mean in 1940. The Luftwaffe was suffering heavy losses by the time tactics were changed to night bombing, widely known as the London Blitz although London was by no means the only target. Industrial towns & factories all over Britain were continually bombed during this period & some suffered heavy damage. The Spitfire factory at Southampton was attacked more than once but by this time manufacture of vital war supplies had been dispersed.

The Luftwaffe's most effective precision bomber, the Ju 87 Stuka, was vulnerable to modern fighters & had been withdrawn from front-line service on August 18th, 1940 after suffering unsustainable losses. It never served on the Western front again. The German fighter pilots had been instructed to stick with the bombers to protect them & could no longer patrol above them keeping watch. Even though the RAF was still losing aircraft & pilots every day, large numbers of fighters were there to meet the bombers on every daylight raid. This must have been demoralising for the enemy aircrews. There were also reserve fighter squadrons based to the north & out of range of the German fighters which could have been brought into play if necessary. Unlike the Luftwaffe, the RAF's main problem in late 1940 was an acute shortage of trained fighter pilots, not aircraft.

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After studying this period in some depth for a number of years I've come to believe that a successful invasion of Britain was highly unlikely. As I mentioned above, Goering's Luftwaffe had failed to destroy RAF Fighter Command as he'd promised. It was quite clear that air superiority was a prime requirement before any invasion would be contemplated. Even if the RAF had been defeated, Britain had the most powerful navy in the world at that time while the Kriegsmarine was confined to harbour. No German general had any experience of waterborne invasion or army/navy combined operations. The invasion fleet, if it could be called that, comprised mainly of hastily converted river barges which were totally unsuited to operation in the open sea. I've seen it stated that a single high-speed pass by a British destroyer would have been enough to swamp & sink any number of invasion barges. What the British most feared was invasion from the air but in fact Germany had nowhere near sufficient trained airborne troops or aircraft to carry them for that to be successful. Almost every field & open space in Britain was filled with anti-glider obstacles. Without total air superiority the Ju 52 transports would have been easy prey for the Hurricanes & Spitfires.

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This is debatable. We've already discussed this at length & it had been proved that the Me 262 could be brought down by conventional fighters. Unless there were overwhelming numbers of them & sufficient experienced pilots to fly them I don't think it would have made much difference.

I agree with James that Hitler had never seriously contemplated fighting Britain. I believe he still hoped for some sort of non-aggression pact with the British government, even when making half-hearted preparations for invasion in 1940. This would have allowed him to concentrate on Operation Barbarossa, his attack on the Soviet Union which was his real objective. I believe this might well have happened if not for one man, Winston Churchill - who was to be a constant thorn in Hitler's side. I've made this point before in various discussions in the History forum.

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You could be right. I'm no expert on naval matters & Japan had not entered the war in 1940. Japan had been an ally in WWI & the Imperial Navy was based on the Royal Navy.

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I don't think anyone would argue with that.

My opinion, the Me109 was showing it's age by 1944.  The Fw190 seemed to be the LW's front line fighter.  Anyway, I think the major considerations were the British and American bombing compaigns were showing their effectiveness by 1944.  And after the Big Week, the LW was on the ropes.  I consider two factors, in fact 3 for the LW's decline.

* Poor high level leadership.  Hitler was going mad, Goering was inept.  Adolph Galland was most capable of running the air war, but that wasn't going to happen.

* The allies were much more able to resupply their forces with parts and planes than the LW. And...

*Atrittion!!!!!!!! Atrittion!!!!!!! Attrition!!!!!!!!

james007,

You're quite the gentleman.  That is obvious, but not to worry, I'm sure it's all good. That's what debate on the internet is about.  Sometimes debaters become passionate about their opinions.  Any sometimes debaters forcefully disagree.  But in the end,  tomorrow will be another day! 

Okay, lets settle this the easy way.

As the war went on,  the Spit MkIX was much improved over the Spits MXV and MKII,  and hte MKXIV was even better.. and so on.

The P-51D was a much better plane then the B and C (even though the only difference between the B and C is one is from Cali the other from Texas)

The late versions of the P-47 were some of the fastest piston powered planes around.

In the Pacific,  the Corsairs got faster,  the Wildcats upgraded to Hellcats,  with the Bearcats soon to follow.

the upgrade process is probably most notable in the Spits,  as there is a pretty huge difference between the MkV and the MkXIV.

Now when you look at Me109 and Fw190,  I just dont see it.  Or at least, you just dont hear about it like you do with the Spits, Mustangs and others.  Everyone talks about how when the P-51D's showed up things really started changing.   But you never really hear about the different makes of the Me or FW.   Its always just the standard Me109, or FW190.....   

So prop vs prop,  i dont think theres much a debate.  The allies had the superrio prop planes. 

If the war had continued, the Bearcat, Tigercat, SeaFury and Hornets would have out performed everything in my opion.  Tigercats and Hornets would have replaced Mossies, Jugs and Lightnings as the top ground support planes.  and the Bearcats, SeaFurys,  along with the hold over Mustangs, Corsairs and late Spits would have held the fighter edge.

Now when you factor in the Jets.  The only thing they had going for them was top speed.  THATS IT.  They could not turn with the prop planes, did not have the range of the prop planes,  and could not even out climb the best prop planes.  So in an actual dog fight,  if a Me262 is going to have to use a hit and run tactic,  the min the Me 262 pilot starts to turn / slow down on a Mustang,   someone else will jump the 262.

but it does really come down to a numbers game.   And by this point in the war, the numbers were far to great.  Even if the Germans held on until 46....   with the constant bombings,  How many Me262's would it have taken to stop the 1000 plane raids of the Allies?

I am aware Hagar of the later Me109's and Fw190's,  But non of the versions really stand out.

Unlike the P51D,  or Spit MkIX, and MkXIV, 

possible the reason for this (and this is my opinion) is that as the Me109 and Fw190s variants came into the war....  the upgraded Allied planes were a step ahead.

But who knows really, its so hard to judge, the Allies got such a numbers advantage.  And the Heavy Bomber raids were defeintly going to end Germanys war machine sooner or later.  Even if the Germans were able to stop the US daylight raids,  if things got THAT bad,  then they just switch over to night too.  Which means they wouldnt need as many guns in the B-17s and 24s... carry more bombs... so on so on.... so much to speculate and what not.


Maybe im just being nieve,  I just see greater improvments in the Allied figher variants.
Especially if you look at the line of Grumman Cats.   Or the replacement of the Dauntless SBD,  the Skyraider. 

It would be interesting to find out just how the air war would have shook out if it had continued on.   How many more years would Wildcats stayed on Navy ships? (as they were the ONLY Navy fighters to fight the whole war, in all major battles)  Could the Me262 had stoped the bombers?  could the Mustangs and Spits and Jugs held the jet age off over Europe?   Could the Bear and Tigercat stop the Kamakazees before they attacked.  Would Skyraiders replace heavy bombers?  (They could after all carry a greater weapons load out the B-17's)

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I'll start with the latter part of your quote to emphasize the rest. Coupled with an injected Merlin engine and an able pilot, the P51 was even a threat to the Me262. Add your other points to that: Germany and Japan had been exhausting their supplies in war for years before Japan succeeded in initiating those efforts by the US. With mass-produced P51s, et. al., the Axis bit off more than they could chew. Unlike WW1, the US's own ability for fast technological advancement was able enough when they entered the war.
As to Hitler's declaration of war against the US, it's rather moot but:
Even had he not outright done so, "The enemy of my enemy is my friend" so, since the UK was already at war with Japan, the US would automatically be an ally of the UK. The UK would have been able to put more resources toward the homefront as the US would have directed even more arms and equipment that much sooner against Japan (outnumbered and utilizing its older planes, the US still managed to smash the IJN at Midway -- much sooner than Yamamoto thought possible). As an ally against Japan, the US would have still be supplied the UK with even more supplies, as well.

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After studying this at some length I have come to believe that Hitler did not want or expect a prolonged campaign against Britain. He had achieved his objectives in Western Europe & would have wished to turn his attention to the East, which had always been his main objective. If he couldn't persuade the British government to join him as an ally a non-aggression pact of some sort would have suited hs purposes. He was an admirer of the British Empire & well aware that he was not only fighting a small island. Hitler also had a number of sympathisers in the British government & even the previous King Edward had been on friendly terms before his abdication. He had visited Berlin on several occasions & had been warmly welcomed. I have often wondered what the rest of the Empire would have done had Britain come to such an agreement.

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These speeches were almost certainly made after Winston Churchill took over as Prime Minister. The much-maligned Neville Chamberlain would have sacrificed almost anything to avoid war but even he realised that he'd failed. I'm sure this was the reason for his death not long afterwards. He died a broken man with everything he passionately believed in shattered.

I'm still not convinced the "accidental" bombiing of London by a single crew was the cause of the Luftwaffe's change of tactics over to night-bombing - the London Blitz. It's a nice story but I think this is based more on the film "Battle of Britain" rather than fact. If it's true I certainly hadn't seen or heard this mentioned anywhere until seeing the film soon after its release. Several raids on different parts of the city had been reported on the day this is supposed to have happened. They could not all have been accidental. This is the official Air Ministry record of that day, 24th August 1940. http://www.raf.mod.uk/bob1940/august24.html Berlin was bombed the following night although this was a token raid causing minimal damage. What is known as the London Blitz officially started on the night of 7th September. A period of intense bombing of London and other cities that continued until the following May.

There might well have been an element of rancour on Hiltler's part but I think this was more likely due to necessity - to avoid more heavy losses in daylight raids, just as RAF Bomber Command was forced into some months later.

I"m sorry but I happen to to agree with Hadgar. What you just wrote is a official History recount wich usually runs short of the truth in many occations.

One must remember that Hitler wanted to invaded Russia in the Atumm of 1940. His General Staff convinced him that the Army was not ready for such a large campaign and that it was in late the year and winter was around the corner.

For once he listem to his General Staff. A invation was never serously planned. Their was a vague plan to invade England with a large paratrooper force followed by a naval force landing. The plan was to destroy the British frces in southern England encircle London and starve them to  capitulation.

It was never implemented. The plan was not to force England by invation to become a relactant Ally.

What the Nazis wanted was to humiliate Churchill by destroying the RAF and pressuring the British Goverment  into a no confident vote.  Get rid of Churchill and replace him with a prime miniter that they could  nagociate a peace agreement with.

You have to remember that the Nazis though they had destroy Englands Radar system. They over estimated the damage they had done to the RAF. They developed a bad habit of over claiming kills that persisted until the End of the war.  

Since they though that RAF was destroy they started the secound phase by tryiong to destroy London the heart of the British Impire.

They miscalculated the resiliancy of the RAF. When they tried to finnished the RAF off they got a rude awakening.

The Battle of Britain did happen. The British people should be very proud of they performance. They did not allowed a the evil Nazis to change the course in History to give in to their pressure.

It just did not happen as we have been told.

If the British people would not have standed as defiant as they did to the Nazis. Western World History would have been totally diferent as we know it today.

So we who appreciate Western value and freedom do owe do them.

NEVER IN FIELD OF ARMS HAVE SO MANY OWE SO MUCH TO SO FEW.

This is only a opinion

James007

As this thread has wandered on to the BoB I would like to make a few comments before leaving it. There seem to be certain common misconceptions which I would like to correct.

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The fact is that they did not fully appreciate the importance of those RADAR stations. These were more difficult targets than they might appear & obviously heavily defended. The Ju 87 was the only practical means of putting them out of action & this had been permanently withdrawn from front-line service as I mentioned earlier.

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Both sides overclaimed kills. This is normal in air warfare but if anything the German figures were more accurate. Like the British in WWI, the Luftwaffe was at a distinct disadvantage. The action was over enemy territory & the escort fighters were operating at the limits of their range with a very short time over target. They had perhaps as little as 10 minutes before being forced to run for home. This involved crossing the English Channel.

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An airborne invasion was what the British feared most. Everyone in the country was on the lookout for parachutists & defences were in place to deal with them. This was the main reason the Home Guard had been formed in early 1940. In fact Germany did not have the large numbers of paratroops & airborne forces they imagined. Even with total air superiority paratroops are no use unless backed up by conventional forces as the British found out at Arnhem in 1944.

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It was actually a very close-run thing. Britain was fortunate in having the recently developed Chain Home RADAR system & the modern fighters to take advantage of a coordinated early warning & fighter control system. Fortunately Air Chief Marshal Dowding the CinC RAF Fighter Command realised the value of this. Although those tall masts look vulnerable they are very difficult to attack from the air. The operators & important parts of the station were often some distance away from the masts & possibly below ground. Some RADAR stations were put out of action but operating again by the the next day, sometimes from reserve mobile units in other locations. The RADAR station at Poling not far from my home town was attacked on August 18th & out of action for the rest of the month. This was a serious break in the chain but the system kept operating. Significantly, this was the same day that the Ju 87 was withdrawn from the battle.

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This is how I see it. Breathing space. The non-aggression pact with Stalin is a good example.

I could go on but this would take several pages so I'll leave it here.

Hadgar you have confirm what I have written. The diference is you are a more historically detail man and I"m more overall generalist.



The fact is that they did not fully appreciate the importance of those RADAR stations.

Yes is true. But also thuoght that they had done enough damage to it to have made it unusable.


Both sides overclaimed kills. This is normal in air warfare but if anything the German figures were more accurate.

Yes your right again. The British erroneus record where of propagada use and also they had no choice but to continue fighting regardless of what kind of erroneous book keeping system they had. The German in the other hand where totally depended on accurate records to able to manage the development of the Battle properly.

It was actually a very close-run thing. Britain was fortunate in having the recently developed Chain Home RADAR system & the modern fighters to take advantage of a coordinated early warning & fighter control system.

Yes it was close run. Both sides had heavy loses. But the Germans though at the time that they where wininng the numbers war. They had very poor intelligence throughout the war. They also overestimated their kills as well throughout the war. All Aiforces did this but for the Germans and Japanese it was a fatal flaw.

In fact Germany did not have the large numbers of paratroops & airborne forces they imagined.

Proves my comment that Operation Sea Lion was a very vague plan that was nerver really taken serously by the German High command.

This has been only a opinion

James007

Wasnt half the reason for Germanys bad intellegence,  is that none of the German soldiers ever wanted to report claims of failure,  in fear of what would happen to them.  Failure was just not an option.

Either way Hitler and the whole Nazi party were a bunch of power hungry idiots who bit off more then they can chew.

Hadgar I"m very impress with your knowlege and Objectvity. Its very hard this days to find people that are objective.

Beign object is difficult for all of us humans cluding my self.

I find you to be very engaging and intelligent. Only a highly intelligent people can be obective not allowing  their emotions to overide their inteligence.

Every rule has its exception and I "m the exception. LoL

Its a lot more Historically Romantic when it comes to the Battle of Britain if you think that RAF saved it from a  Invation.

But you think about it. Its the truth is as traumatic and heroic if think about it. That the RAF was able to resist the might of the Nazis Military and not allow it to impose its will on its people.

If you really think about it the real heroes in this Battle where the British people.

They could have demanded a Govermental change and aks for peace. That made all the perfect sense in the World. They did not. The rest is history.

No I"m not from your part of the World. That perhaps gives me a advantage.

I have never seen the World through single point of view. I have been like this since I was a kid.

I always seen the the big scope of things and not concentrate in my little part of the world.

I hope no one takes this as a  insult.

I do miss sometimes the detail. No one is perfect.

Thats the reason I will always see this war from a global perpective and not just from the European nor Far East view.

Its been a pleasure and a learning experience posting with you and the others.

This is not a point of view but a statement.

James007

Yes,Hadgar. Churchill was the simgle most important man in western history in since the last millinium.

Its no exagaration  when one considers what could have happen without him been there when the western world needed him the most.

You must remember he also needed a strong people to followed him as well.

IF THE BRITISH EMPIRE LAST ONE THOUSAND YEARS
LET THEM SAY,
THIS WAS THEIR FINEST HOUR.

Well the Empire did not last one years. But it was sure its greatest moment.

This is only a opinion.

I will write one more post on this subject later. You guys can continue without me. I hope you keep writting on this subject. I will learn from you guys instead after that.

Thank you

PS please remember World war two was a global war. Treat as such. I guarantee you will enjoy the story a lot more.

Do not forget the Forgotten Army, the Fourteenth.

James007

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You seem to have a thing about the Bearcat. I've seen a Bearcat & Sabre displayed at Duxford several times in the last couple of seasons. I last saw the Sabre at Old Warden a couple of weeks ago along with the Sea Fury. They're all nice aircraft but just remember speed isn't everything.