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I can see several flaws.

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First, I assume you mean in 1940. The Luftwaffe was suffering heavy losses by the time tactics were changed to night bombing, widely known as the London Blitz although London was by no means the only target. Industrial towns & factories all over Britain were continually bombed during this period & some suffered heavy damage. The Spitfire factory at Southampton was attacked more than once but by this time manufacture of vital war supplies had been dispersed.

The Luftwaffe's most effective precision bomber, the Ju 87 Stuka, was vulnerable to modern fighters & had been withdrawn from front-line service on August 18th, 1940 after suffering unsustainable losses. It never served on the Western front again. The German fighter pilots had been instructed to stick with the bombers to protect them & could no longer patrol above them keeping watch. Even though the RAF was still losing aircraft & pilots every day, large numbers of fighters were there to meet the bombers on every daylight raid. This must have been demoralising for the enemy aircrews. There were also reserve fighter squadrons based to the north & out of range of the German fighters which could have been brought into play if necessary. Unlike the Luftwaffe, the RAF's main problem in late 1940 was an acute shortage of trained fighter pilots, not aircraft.

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After studying this period in some depth for a number of years I've come to believe that a successful invasion of Britain was highly unlikely. As I mentioned above, Goering's Luftwaffe had failed to destroy RAF Fighter Command as he'd promised. It was quite clear that air superiority was a prime requirement before any invasion would be contemplated. Even if the RAF had been defeated, Britain had the most powerful navy in the world at that time while the Kriegsmarine was confined to harbour. No German general had any experience of waterborne invasion or army/navy combined operations. The invasion fleet, if it could be called that, comprised mainly of hastily converted river barges which were totally unsuited to operation in the open sea. I've seen it stated that a single high-speed pass by a British destroyer would have been enough to swamp & sink any number of invasion barges. What the British most feared was invasion from the air but in fact Germany had nowhere near sufficient trained airborne troops or aircraft to carry them for that to be successful. Almost every field & open space in Britain was filled with anti-glider obstacles. Without total air superiority the Ju 52 transports would have been easy prey for the Hurricanes & Spitfires.

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This is debatable. We've already discussed this at length & it had been proved that the Me 262 could be brought down by conventional fighters. Unless there were overwhelming numbers of them & sufficient experienced pilots to fly them I don't think it would have made much difference.

I agree with James that Hitler had never seriously contemplated fighting Britain. I believe he still hoped for some sort of non-aggression pact with the British government, even when making half-hearted preparations for invasion in 1940. This would have allowed him to concentrate on Operation Barbarossa, his attack on the Soviet Union which was his real objective. I believe this might well have happened if not for one man, Winston Churchill - who was to be a constant thorn in Hitler's side. I've made this point before in various discussions in the History forum.

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You could be right. I'm no expert on naval matters & Japan had not entered the war in 1940. Japan had been an ally in WWI & the Imperial Navy was based on the Royal Navy.

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I don't think anyone would argue with that.

My opinion, the Me109 was showing it's age by 1944.  The Fw190 seemed to be the LW's front line fighter.  Anyway, I think the major considerations were the British and American bombing compaigns were showing their effectiveness by 1944.  And after the Big Week, the LW was on the ropes.  I consider two factors, in fact 3 for the LW's decline.

* Poor high level leadership.  Hitler was going mad, Goering was inept.  Adolph Galland was most capable of running the air war, but that wasn't going to happen.

* The allies were much more able to resupply their forces with parts and planes than the LW. And...

*Atrittion!!!!!!!! Atrittion!!!!!!! Attrition!!!!!!!!

james007,

You're quite the gentleman.  That is obvious, but not to worry, I'm sure it's all good. That's what debate on the internet is about.  Sometimes debaters become passionate about their opinions.  Any sometimes debaters forcefully disagree.  But in the end,  tomorrow will be another day! 

Okay, lets settle this the easy way.

As the war went on,  the Spit MkIX was much improved over the Spits MXV and MKII,  and hte MKXIV was even better.. and so on.

The P-51D was a much better plane then the B and C (even though the only difference between the B and C is one is from Cali the other from Texas)

The late versions of the P-47 were some of the fastest piston powered planes around.

In the Pacific,  the Corsairs got faster,  the Wildcats upgraded to Hellcats,  with the Bearcats soon to follow.

the upgrade process is probably most notable in the Spits,  as there is a pretty huge difference between the MkV and the MkXIV.

Now when you look at Me109 and Fw190,  I just dont see it.  Or at least, you just dont hear about it like you do with the Spits, Mustangs and others.  Everyone talks about how when the P-51D's showed up things really started changing.   But you never really hear about the different makes of the Me or FW.   Its always just the standard Me109, or FW190.....   

So prop vs prop,  i dont think theres much a debate.  The allies had the superrio prop planes. 

If the war had continued, the Bearcat, Tigercat, SeaFury and Hornets would have out performed everything in my opion.  Tigercats and Hornets would have replaced Mossies, Jugs and Lightnings as the top ground support planes.  and the Bearcats, SeaFurys,  along with the hold over Mustangs, Corsairs and late Spits would have held the fighter edge.

Now when you factor in the Jets.  The only thing they had going for them was top speed.  THATS IT.  They could not turn with the prop planes, did not have the range of the prop planes,  and could not even out climb the best prop planes.  So in an actual dog fight,  if a Me262 is going to have to use a hit and run tactic,  the min the Me 262 pilot starts to turn / slow down on a Mustang,   someone else will jump the 262.

but it does really come down to a numbers game.   And by this point in the war, the numbers were far to great.  Even if the Germans held on until 46....   with the constant bombings,  How many Me262's would it have taken to stop the 1000 plane raids of the Allies?

I am aware Hagar of the later Me109's and Fw190's,  But non of the versions really stand out.

Unlike the P51D,  or Spit MkIX, and MkXIV, 

possible the reason for this (and this is my opinion) is that as the Me109 and Fw190s variants came into the war....  the upgraded Allied planes were a step ahead.

But who knows really, its so hard to judge, the Allies got such a numbers advantage.  And the Heavy Bomber raids were defeintly going to end Germanys war machine sooner or later.  Even if the Germans were able to stop the US daylight raids,  if things got THAT bad,  then they just switch over to night too.  Which means they wouldnt need as many guns in the B-17s and 24s... carry more bombs... so on so on.... so much to speculate and what not.


Maybe im just being nieve,  I just see greater improvments in the Allied figher variants.
Especially if you look at the line of Grumman Cats.   Or the replacement of the Dauntless SBD,  the Skyraider. 

It would be interesting to find out just how the air war would have shook out if it had continued on.   How many more years would Wildcats stayed on Navy ships? (as they were the ONLY Navy fighters to fight the whole war, in all major battles)  Could the Me262 had stoped the bombers?  could the Mustangs and Spits and Jugs held the jet age off over Europe?   Could the Bear and Tigercat stop the Kamakazees before they attacked.  Would Skyraiders replace heavy bombers?  (They could after all carry a greater weapons load out the B-17's)

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I'll start with the latter part of your quote to emphasize the rest. Coupled with an injected Merlin engine and an able pilot, the P51 was even a threat to the Me262. Add your other points to that: Germany and Japan had been exhausting their supplies in war for years before Japan succeeded in initiating those efforts by the US. With mass-produced P51s, et. al., the Axis bit off more than they could chew. Unlike WW1, the US's own ability for fast technological advancement was able enough when they entered the war.
As to Hitler's declaration of war against the US, it's rather moot but:
Even had he not outright done so, "The enemy of my enemy is my friend" so, since the UK was already at war with Japan, the US would automatically be an ally of the UK. The UK would have been able to put more resources toward the homefront as the US would have directed even more arms and equipment that much sooner against Japan (outnumbered and utilizing its older planes, the US still managed to smash the IJN at Midway -- much sooner than Yamamoto thought possible). As an ally against Japan, the US would have still be supplied the UK with even more supplies, as well.