Which nation's tactics do you think are best?

What's so good about their tactics?

US by far!!!!

First of all, the Thatch Weave was a simple, yet brilliant solution to counter the more nimble Zero.  Navy and Marine pilots use the the Thatch Weave up until the end of the war.  The Finger 4 and echelon were superior formations than what the Japanese used, a flight of 3 similar to early British fighter formations.

Also, Japanese combattants were too given to Bushido which ended up having them quick to go down in a blazing glory rather than try to live to fight another day.

Also, the Japanese were plagued at all levels by complex planning and rigid execution.  In contrast, Americans were much more willing to improvise as necessary.

To illustrate this last point, there was a famous Guadalcanal mission commanded by Joe Foss.  There is now a famous painting depicting this mission.  A very large Japanese formation was heading toward Guadalcanal.  Foss took up his flight of F4's and some army P38's.  Their flight of 12 planes were hopelessly outnumbered.  Foss had them duck in and out of clouds all over the sky in an attempt to make it look like their numbers were more than what it actually was.  The Japanese never attacked, but after some time, just turned around and flew back to Rabaul.

What was learned after the war was the Japanese had a decoy formation.  Only when the Americans attacked the decoy, would other formations attack the Americans, and the bombers would work over Henderson unmolested.  Well, since Foss never went after the decoy, the Japanese, paralized with rigidity, never executed the next step of their attack, and after their fuel ran low, just turned around and flew back to Rabaul.

Here's that painting:
http://www.daveswarbirds.com/cactus/paint_9.htm

I remember reading, during the air war over Japan in 1945, the Japanese Army developed techniques of ramming B-Sans (the name Japanese gave the B29)  These were not intended to be suicide missions, the pilots were expected to bail out - with mixed results, both in successful attacks and survivability of the pilots.

I disagree. most of the tactics used against Japan were from pre-existing fighter doctrine, the experience of the Flying Tigers and seat-of-the-pants trial and error.  For example, the Thatch Weave was invented on the back of a napkin by Jimmy Thatch.  If you read biographies of various aces in the Pacific War, they'll at some time or another mention that they learned the tactics works against  the enemy by just engaging them and surviving the engagements.

Agreed DCunning....
Im not even going to attempt spelling out his name,  well why not, Claire Chanault? anyway, he brought the Tigers  to China,  watched the chinese for some 3 years,  studing their areal tactics, then came up with his ideas on how to defeat them.  HAd nothing to do with what the Brits or Germans were doing. 


Me and a friend came up with a good tactic well flying CFS2 over the net against people.  Was a hi-lo game we played with the Tiger and Bearcat.  Id sit high in the Tiger,  hed go down in the dog fight.  Since the Bearcat can out turn just about anything,   alot of people would try to do a loop to get away from him,   in which case they would pull straight up into my 4 blazing machine guns and 4 blazing cannons.   If they were usen a Jap plane,  easy kills.

and if someone managed to sneak up to my altitude,  id simply use the Big Cats speed,  roll over, and dive, and let the unsuspecting chap follow me right down to where my wingman in the Bearcat would be waiting.

But we never really called each other wingman, as we never were very close to each other.


Id vote on US tactics simply on the "improving" 
how bout Pappy Boyingtons trick of flying bomber formations with the Corsairs to lure the Japs up into a fight......

Agreed james007.

I have studied the Pacific War most of my life.  And I agree with the saying "history is written by the victors".  And I absolutely abhor historical revisionism.  That's why I seek out text from the Japanese perspective and text written by Japanes authors as much as possible.  I have read Samurai by Saburo Sakai, I have read God's Samurai, the biography of Mitsuo Fuchida.  BTW, that book is out of print, but you can buy it used off amazon.com.  I read the biography of Isoroku Yamamoto, The Rising Sun by John Toland, and several other books that approach the subject from the Japanese perspective.

I'm fully aware of the racist component.  But the fact of the matter is the Pacific War was a clash of cultures as much as it was of nations.  It was a clash of the oriental mindset vs. the occadental western mindset.  I'm not talking racism, I'm talking "what is".  And to illustrate my esteem of the matter, one of my heros happens to be Mitsuo Fuchida.  Now, we all know he was the air commander of the Pearl Harbor mission, but  as a tease, if you were to read God's Samurai, you'll understand why I esteem him so much.

Now, did the US conduct themselves well during the war?  We had out *issues*, for example, if we lost the war, Curtiss LeMay would definately be tried for crimes against humanity.  But then again, we won, therefore LeMay was a hero and became the first commander of SAC.

And to give Japan their props, consider when Commodore Perry opened Japan for trade in 1854, Japan was pretty much a medevial, feudal society.  And in 51 years from that point, the Japanese Navy spanked the Russian fleet off Tsushima.  That was amazing!  To go from a medevial society to beating one of the world's modern navy's in 51 years?  That was amazing!

That goes to show just how much the Japanese society can accomplish as a collective national unit.  Just ask American auto companies about what Japan can accomplish.  That is their national treasure, their ability to collectively focus on a challenge.

Dcunning A love this subject. Since all this Simulators are base on World war two I think this post is very mush related to it. I will continie this dicscution at a later date.

I have to go to work now.

I hope to continues this facinating dicuscution.

You are all very informative.

Thank you James007

Agreed all.

It isn't fair that the war criminals on the winning side don't be punished. Arthur Harris was horrid. He never did anything much constructive when he was a lad, and he just went nuts over bombing civilians. A bomb nut like Hitler

Urrm, what did LeMay do? Never heard of him...

What even was the Thach Weave? All sources of info on the net and in books tell you what these great tactics were called, but never tell you what the tactic was...



Happy flying,

Bombardier

Dccuning when I made the comment that the Japanese or our enemy has not gotten due credit for their military value. I meant it not for you.

I have agree with almost all you written so far. That comment was reserve those for of us who have just started getting interested in the subject of World war two.

You mention Hugh Dowding, he is one of my favorite Heroes of the war.

Look at how entrage the British where in their caste system of Royalty and nobles that they basically demoted him after the Battle of Britain because he disagree with one of his Surbordinate on how to conduct Battle. His rival had good connections with higher ups and they basically retire him early.

What a lost to Britain in a momment of her most need.
The critisism was meant not for Battle tatics but actual airial formation and other tatics.

For those of us love history in general and World war in particular. Its important that try to be as objective in your research and evaluation as best as human possible.

Do not take side and and try to see everything from as many different angles as possibles. Do not to change history but bee open minded for different point of views.

Know that not everything written is the absolute truth.

Offical history is not the final truth nor reputable historian have all the truth in their writing.

Reseach and research as much as possible. You also need to bee able to place your self at that period in time you are looking into and allow your self to think like they thought at the time period are you reseaching.

I also hate revisionist as much as any body who like the purity of history.

They like to change history and thus the truth of history.

But I do like the clarification of history for the purity of it.

I will write many thing that may bee historial offensive to some. But if you really think about it you might bee able to see that I might be right.

The first one I will write about is Pearl Harbor.

Do you guys know that we pushed Japan into attacking Pear Harbor.

How is that possible when we have always been told that Japan sneek attack us while we slept.

Not true. We place a Oil enbargo on Japan to encorage them to stop them from expanding  ever more into China. When they occupied Indochina, They became a threat to the Philippines. That we refuse to accept.

By impposing the Oil embargo we cut their only realable source of Oil. They only had seven month of Oil in reserve.  They decided to go to war so they could posses the Oil in the East Duth Indies.

There is no doubt that Imperial Japan was a aggressive Imperialist country with brutal habits.But we basicaly force them in to making the decision to make war on us.

Was Pear Harbor a sneek attack. I say yes and no.

Technicaly it was a sneek attack because the tradition in those days was to declare war before you attack your enemy.

The Japanese plan was to declare war before attacking Pear Harbor.

Due to a bad typist in their Enbassy thats is not what happen.

Washignton received the declararion of war after the attack already happen.

The attack on Pearl Harbor was our fault in the sence that we should have been more alert and never understimated the potential of our enemy.

We knew they where going to attack but we underestimated them because we did not expected a country like Japan to be so audaxious.

We expected them to attack the Philippines instead. But we knew that there was going to bee a war soon.

Our Goverment use that delay to declare war wisely and called the attack a cowardly military act.

I do not blame our Goverment for useing this tool for the benefit of the war effort but I do blame so call historians for not clarifying this ussues after so many years.

Did our Goverment desicion to cut their Oil  the right one.

I beleive it was. The Japanese where very aggressive and had every intent to enslave the orient.

But they did not started war we did. We force them in to that decision.

I can go on and  on in many World war two issues that simply are written and accepted that are really incorrectly recorded.

I found this the other day on Pearl Harbor. Please tell me what you guys think about it.

1.http://www.flightjournal.com/articles/lost_p-36/sterling1.asp

I will post many post on this issue later.

I hope you have enjoy this critical review of World war two.

Its only a opinion.

James007

Curtiss LeMay was the general responsible for the B29 forces out of Saipan.  He abandoned the practice of high level bombing to low lever bombing of an altitude of from 5,000 - 10,000 feet.  He also stripped the B29's of defensive armament so they could carry more bombs.  And he abandoned HE bombs for incindiary bombs.

Now, what had happened in Japan was after the factories had been getting bombed out, they disbursed their sub-assembliy manufacturing to surrounding homes.  And these homes were made out fo wood and paper.  LeMay chose to have the B29's go over cities at low level and at night and just bomb the homes.  Granted, many of the homes doubled as manufacturing facilities, but they were still homes, with families.  As a result, the fire bombings of Japanese cities killed far more Japanese *civilians* than both atomic bombs.  To me, that would constitute as a policy that would qualify as a crime against humanity.

Now, the Thatch Weave:

Two American fighters would be flying parallel, but would sissor back and forward criss crossing each other.  If an enemy plane latched on the tail of one plane, when the two American planes began crossing each other, the enemy on the tail of one plane would end up in the gunsights of the other.  Consider it mutual "I got your back" protection.

Quote:



Best advice yet.  Falling into that causes much in the way of historical revisionism.  We can especially see that in recent years surrounding the dropping of the atomic bombs.

Dcunning30 Those are all excellent points. Another point is that a lot of you read about Aviation history is pure fiction.

From the begining this war was plague by propaganda by both sides.

Of course the Japanese where better at it in the sense that their claims where so out rageous that no one in their right mind could believe them.

We where a lot more sofisticated and believable. The propaganda began right at Pearl Harbor and continue right until VE day.

This where the days when we the public believed almost everything our Goverment would tell us.

Like for example when our first ship a destroyer was sunk by the Germans before they declared war on us.

Roosevelt made speach on how the first shot was done by them but the last shot was going to be done by us hopping the public would be so outrage that they would demand a declaration of war against the Germans.

What he did not tell the public was that the destroyer had depth charched the Submarine for a long time before.

The Gorverment also claim that the Japanese had  attacked Pearl Harbor in a sneek attack while we where in a nagociating with them on a peaceful resolution to the Pacific crisis.

In truth was we where expecting them to attack us at any moment since we had broken their diplomatic codes months before and knew they preparing to attack us.

It was our lack of intellegence and  arrogance on our part that  allowed them to  catch us with our pants down more than a Japanese betrayal.

If you read the News Papers of the era at the time of Pearl Harbor. They will gave us the impression that the few planes that where able to takeoff during the attack where more than a match against the Japanese.

That mind set that we where better than the Japanese at ratio of one to Ten was impregnated in our collective mind for the duration of the war.

I was flobogusted when I read Martin Caidin book Fort-Tail Devil:The P38.

In this book he claimed that he was chosen with a group of other writers to write the history of the Fith Airforce.

He was surprise to find many records where lost during the war. He blame it on Japanese air raids on our airbases during the war.

He also wrote that sometimes they would would find bits of  pieces of report and they would put it together with make up storie.

What realy blew me away is that he found nothing wrong with that.

If I remember correctly. I saw a documentary on World  war two called the World at war by the BBC. In the Pacific war installment a saw Marine Instructor telling his new Marine recruits how much better they where than the Japanese. He told them that they where Ten times better than the Dam Japs.

That was just the mentality of those days. Being shot down by Japanese was dam embarrassing.

Being shot down by a Germem was a misfortune, beign shot down by a Japanese was almost a disgrace.

That kind of mentality has only hurt our Pacific Airmen legacy thru the years.

It degraded their effort , bravery and skill that was required of them to achieve victory in the Pacific.

Thats the main reason that now most Simulators are dedicated to the European Theater.

The public impression is that the Pacific air war was relative easy since the Japanese where poorly trained and their planes where inferior to ours.

That has bother me for years. Not for the honor of the Japanese airmen but for Honor of our Aviators.

It took courage, skill and hard work to beat this guys. It was not easy nor did we win every engagement with the enemy from 43 to 45.

The reality was that we had better pilots, leaders and planes and we did win the important Battles.

The fact is also was that we where not ten times better than they where . That mentality has only served to hurt our image of our Piciific fighter pilots.

I could write more obout it but right now I do not have the time.

I will write more on this subject that I"am passionate about at a later date.

If you read this post I want to Thank you.

If you have any comment please write them.

I love this type of Historical discussions.

This is only a Opinion.

James007

To summarize my point I would say:

It was a matter of which side planned for a lengthy campaign of attrition, and was best able to resupply parts, planes, and most importantly, skilled pilots.


* The Japanese was short sighted in their plans so they didn't plan to a long war.  The Americans prepared to go the distance.

* As a result of the short-war planning, the Japanese didn't rotate out their combat experienced pilots to train new pilots.  The Americans did.

* The Japanese sub fleet failed to appreciate the importance of going after Amercan merchantmen.  The Americans saw that importance from the outset.

* Having been caught up in "victory disease" the Japanese continued to expand southward rather than secure their vulnerable sea-lanes between the oil fields in Indo-China and the homeland.

*All this converged to make it very difficult for the Japanese to properly train replacement pilots.  And as a result, we had events such as The Great Mariannas Turkey Shoot.

I would say another major factor in the outcome of WW2,  and which also has a direct link to training pilots,  Is the US never had to worry about the enemy flying over its homeland bases.

I just watched a history Channel program on the Flying Tigers.   And near the end,  a Flying Tiger said they had a score of 290 Japense planes shot down,  to only 4 pilots killed in air combat.


Pearl Harbor always annoys me.  Not the whole attack itself, but the way the US has ALWAYS hyped up the 2 P40's that got in the air.  They shot down planes that were low on fuel, low if not out of ammo,  on there way back after they already attacked.  Still kills non the less.... BUT,  the Japs still destroyed the pacific fleet.  And dont even get me started on the pathetic Disney movie made a few years ago.  (I really hate CGI aircraft)

So why is it that the pacific figters are all radial engines pretty much,  well the European fighters are all inline/water cooled?  The top speed wasnt the reason i would assume, as the Corsair was the first to hit 400,  and could keep up with anything.  And the Jug was showing its radial speed off in Europe? 

Thats gettin to be a whole nother topic in its sefl,  best planes of the war.

As for tactics,  ill still stick with the US in the pacific.   Even if they do have propganda inflated kill ratios   8)

Anyone have the Jap numbers?   or even the US ones.   Would love to see the comparisons.

Quote:


The Corsair was the first single engined plane to reach 400MPH in level flight...

The P-38 was the first to reach 400MPH in level flight.

btw, I love historical discussions like this and seeing so many other people's opinions and learning what other people know, that I don't. keep it up guys! 

Good Hunting,
Brandon

james007,

Give me some time to read those links.  I started the MacGuire link and it's interesting.  Anyway, to peel away the myth, what about Grey Boyington?  Some of his claimed "kills" happened to be planes he destroyed on the ground.

And that silver star Pres. Johnson wore on his lapel?  It has been said that he recieved that on a mission that he never seen combat in.  The bomber he rode in as *passenger* turned back due to mechanical troubles.  Yet he was the only person on that mission who received any accomodation.  Call it a gift from MacArthur who may have been greasing the palm of someone who might come in handy for any future political aspirations on the part of the General.

I agree with you whole heartedly James,

A hero in my eyes is not some superstrong, all-knowing 'hercules' but someone who is more human, who went through struggles and hardship's that I will never know... I think algebra is hard... what about having a friend that was shot down and killed over some country you have never heard of? or someone who rams their plane into an enemy bomber that's about to drop it's load on a friendly base? now that, in my honest opinion, is a hero.



Good Hunting,
Brandon

MadTIGERaN I'm sorry tell you this. The Japanese had complete air superriority throughout the Burmese campaign of 1942.

The Flying Tiger never where alble to take that from them. Like I said before they are my heroe as they are your yours.

As matter of fact the more I get to the facts the better they look to me.

Had they fought a whimpy enemy that would have been ready and willing to be shoot down that easy as Mithycal history portraits than it would have taken the glair of their achievement away.

They where succesful, brave and very good pitols with great taitics.

They just did not shoot down 290 planes. Its just not common sense.

They are surely Heroes in my book.

I recommen you read as much about this and the many other subjects on World war 2 as possible and always keep a open mind.

World war two is facinating period in history.

Please do not just concentrate on just one Thearter or another. Concentrate on the whole war.

This was the first truely World war and should be treated as such.

Last put not least be as objective as possible.

James007

james007,

I've always comprehended the fact that the US is not perfect and have done things in the past that are deceptive or even just plain bad.  But when engaging in discussions I don't feel it necessary to bring up the fact that the US did bad things too, unless the context of the discussion calls for that.

I understand many are motivated to be sensative to posters/readers from other countries, especially when considering sensitivites of other nationals regarding American patriotism.  To me, being partiotic doesn't mean never admitting our failures, but on the flip side, I don't see the need to bring up examples of our failures, just for the sake of others sensativities.

Im going to have to disagree James,  and the Flying Tiger pilots themselves im sure will too.  In fact ive heard Tex Hill speak at the airshow in Oshkosh a few times. 

If the Japenese had air superriority,  They would have had more kills.  They indeed did put up more numbers then the AVG,  BUt if that gives you Air Superriority, then i suppose the Germans had it over England during the Battle of Britain as well?


I think the Burma campaigne is definetly one of the more interesting ones,  As it never really appears like the Japenese go after air superriority,  in fact, they almost seem to ignore the AVG all together, and concentrate on their bombing runs and air raids instead of winning the air war first.

Im not saying the AVG had the air superriority,  BUT,  the Japanese did not either,  Not at least until the AVG pulled out,  but by that point, the Chinese army had Halted the Japenese army.


When it comes to doing whats right/wrong in war,  Ive found an interesting coincedence with this.  I think it is directly connected with the type of person and their background to begin with BEFORE they join the service.  ESPECIALLY in todays military.  The majority of recruits for todays armed forces are coming from low income families where this maybe the only way for the person to get the money to go to college.   A gang member joins up to get off the streets,  a trailor park kid joins up to get out of the mobil home.   A redneck joins up to get out of the shack that he lives in.  A farmboy joins up to get off the farm.....    They go off to bootcamp where its drilled into them "America rules, the other guys are bad"  Back during WW2, Korea, Vietnam, and those wars,  the enemy even given colorful nicknames like "Charlie" and what not,  to further show that they are inferior.   These lo-educated soldiers get brainwashed so easily,  and get to a point of thinking that they dont even look at the enemy as a human anymore.  I think this can really be seen in todays armed forces more so then WW2.   But this is really a whole nother topic,  and really something thats hard to discuss....   As once a soldier gets a conscience for what they are doing, theyre as good as dead.

Quote:



Whoa!!  Did you open up a can or worms!

I can't disagree with you more forcefully!  True, there are those who joined today's armed forces for career opportunities, but there are also thos who joined because that's exactly what they wanted to do.  We have a high-tech military.  Brain-dead lemmings waiting to be brain-washed need not apply.  Just because they believe in what they do, and are proud to do it, you must not confuse that with being brain-washed simpletons.  I believe in what they do and I'm proud of them as well.   I'm no brain-washed simpleton!

I should clarify DC,   And i should not have said majority.

BUt at the same time ill stand by what I said,  As its those brainwashed soldiers that useally end up doing something stuipd,  like the prison in Iraq. 

Theres a great scene in I believe the 2nd episode of Band of Brothers that tells alot.  when one of the US troops stumbles across a German POD who actually was an American from a city near to where the American was from.  This soldier, and many others find out,   Hey, these people arnt that bad?  Its just our governments clashing over whatever....   

Then you could watch a movie like Full Metal Jacket,  in which the Helicopter Machine Gunner gets asked "how do you know which ones too shoot at, and he replies "If they run, theyre VC,  if they dont run, theyre well trained VC"  Basically this fictional character embodies the "brainwashed soldier"  Where he does not see a human,  he sees an enemy that must die.  On all sides of every war, there are people with this mentalitiy. Most notable Hiter and the Nazis.  Anyway, this is gettin way off subject so ill wrap it up by saying that i respect people who join up and commet to such a thing as serving,  BUT there are alot of people who join up,  who are unable to determine right from wrong but are giving a gun anyway.....  (Some of them even end up running things)

and i wouldnt say the History books are written by the victors,  They are written by the country your in.  China has recently been upset with Japan, because in the new edition of Japans history books for the schools,  they ignore the horrible things that the Japanese did in China,  and make Japan out to be the "Good guys"


Can you imagine a history book in 50 years saying "In 2003,  We (the US) invaded Iraq and forced them to become a democratic country.....  Of course not, it will say we liberated a surpressed people.



GREAT TACTIC OF THE NIGHT

The Dam Busters,  now that was some sort of tactic

Quote:


The Abu Girab matter was an anomoly.  The second shift guards were not regular army and weren't properly trained.  Much hay was made out of it by the media and certain politicians *purely* for political reasons.  The fact is, by the time the pictures hit the media, the military had been several months involved into the investigation with the goal of prosecuting the culprits.  Yet the media and certain politicians made it look like they discovered the army doing bad stuff and it was them who were forcing the military's investigations.  They have lied to us, for political purposes.

And your reference to the Band of Brothers must but put into it's proper context.  Sure, regular conscripts were just regular folk caught up in the events, but the Waffen SS and the Hitler Youth, they were truly the kool-aid drinkers.  They believe in all the Nazi hype, especially the Hitler Youth.  They were psycho about the propaganda.

And Full Metal Jacket, it's a movie.  Viet Nam was an ill-prepared war with unclear goals, poor strategies, and no domestic support.  What steams me is watching media and certain politicians who clearly do not support our Iraq effort are the ones who keep trying to convince anyone and everyone that Iraq is another Viet Nam.  It's like a self fufilling prophecy.  If they keep saying Iraq is like Viet Nam enough, they attempt to convince the polulation, then the population will enu up withdrawing support and it will end up like Viet Nam.  This is dispicable to me.

All this hype of "We don't support the war but we support the troops" is nonsense.  The troops are defined by their mission.  The sooner and more successfully they complete their mission, the sooner they come home.  By not supporting their mission, morale IS affected.  No amount of explaining and theorizing can change that fact.  The soldier is defined by his/her mission.  Period.  Heck, we're still dealing with Viet Nam vets who are still having issues.  Why?  Because it was an unpopular war and they got no support.  Imaging, they killed, adn watched their buddies die around them, only to have some bunch of politically motivated activists tell them that they suffered hardship and pain for, in John Kerry's words, "A big nothing".  Is that what we want for our service personnel in Iraq to deal with when they come home?  That's exactly what certain segments in society are trying (albieit unknowingly) to set up for them.

Now is Iraq easy?  No.  Is any war?  No. So, when it get's difficult, do we dig in, or do we cut and run?  These media and politicians want us to cut and run, thus fulfilling their prophecies.

And I'm aware how the Japanese had attempted to sanitize thei ractivities in WWII.  But to equate that with Iraq is to ignore the facst.  The Iraqi's were a suppressed people.  How can you say they weren't?  And you know what comprises the insurgents?  Ex-Bathists and foreign jihadis.  Now, the ex-Bathis have been rethinking their actions considering they're killing their fellow Iraqis.  But the foreign jihadis?  They could care less who they are killing.  In fact, they are targeting Iraqi's because they make easier targets.  To equate all this with what Japan did to China during WWII is to ignore large sums of current facts and historical facts.

...but we are moving off the subject of WWII fighters in a very big way at this point.

Quote:


I agree about Iraq being more like Viet Nam that WWII.  The WWII generation became one mind in winning the conflict.  There was much debate pro and against the war prior to us entering the war.  But once we joined the conflict, all debate stopped.  With Iraq, as was in Viet Nam, the debate continued, without regard to the harm to morale of the troops that is created by many of the things that were and are being said.

And I can understand recruiting going down.  All you have to do is watch the evening news and anyone would become depressed about matters.  There's positive news regarding Iraq, just you're not going to get it from the networks.  Also, regarding active duty personnel, re-up's are going through the roof.

Your points regarding the educated soldier and using kamakaze's as an example are not clear to me.  Can you explain what you mean?

You have got to remeber the way they though back then was different that the way we think to day.

What many writters forget is that most of the time the truth is more interesting than created Myth.

Military Myth are created to reduce fear and create confidence. Sometimes Goverment need to do this.

But Historian given the appropiate time. Should exclude them from actual historical records.

I blame our present day Historians for not been more critical.

This is only a opinion

James007

Please do tell us Bomberman   would love to hear what those tactics are?   interesting names.


And your right on about the support our troops but not the war thing.  Thats how ive felt all along and meant to address that with DC.   Im a big Pearl Jam fan, and they cought MAJOR flack back in 03 for voicing up against Bush.  Suddenly because they did not support the presidents decision to go to war,  they were un-american, un-patriotic, and wanted the troops dead?   Which makes no sence really,  how can people who dont support war, because they want PEACE want troops dead?    and so on,  i could go on forever about the subject.  And i do think the best part about Eddie Vedder and Pearl Jam through that whole thing,  Is that Eddie V is very well knowledge on the subject, and isnt just another celebrity wind bag.