Simviation Forum - Australian submarines in WW2

Reply #15 - Jul 29^th, 2005 at 5:56am

Bombardier101 Offline
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Thanks for the headsup Hagar. Wink

Hey, the Germans didn't do bad and they could've won something if it wasn't for smartass Hitler and smartass Goering.

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Reply #16 - Jul 29^th, 2005 at 7:09am

Heretic Ex Member

Quote:

...smartass Goering.

Don't even get me started on that fatso.

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Reply #17 - Jul 30^th, 2005 at 2:52am

Bombardier101 Offline
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He was so fat the Luftwaffe wanted to use him for a barrage balloon. You'll get barrage from that... Grin

I have a relative who is German...

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Reply #18 - Jul 30^th, 2005 at 4:09am

H Offline
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Quote:

Don't even get me started on that fatso.

What happened to Udet, the 2nd highest scoring WW1 German ace, the highest scoring to survive that war?
Goering, Gestapo....
Goering soon took over M.vonRichthofen's command; should have substituted for him in that Dr-1 on April 21, 1918. In fact, I now question the loss of Manfred's immediate successor whom Goering replaced. Angry

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Reply #19 - Jul 30^th, 2005 at 6:32am

Heretic Ex Member

Goering was still stuck in the thinking schemes of WW1, in which the air forces were just supporting the ground troops.
Don't forget that Goering was a quite successful fighter pilot himself.

Quote:

The last Commander in 1918 of the Richthofen Fighter Squadron, Goering distinguished himself as an air ace, credited with shooting down twenty-two Allied aircraft. Awarded the Pour le Merite and the Iron Cross (First Class), he ended the war with the romantic aura of a much decorated pilot and war hero.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/goering.html

The disgusting thing about him were his empty promises. His best action may have been providing an inpenetrable fighter cover for the breakout of the Scharnhorst & co out of Brest in 1942, though I doubt that this was his idea.

Quote:

The Germans had put a great deal of thought into Operation Cerberus. British coastal radar had been jammed as a matter of course – but by February 1942, the success of the jamming had become extensive. Vice-Admiral Ciliax, commander of the battle-cruisers, could also sail knowing that the Luftwaffe could provide a total of 280 fighter planes to give aerial cover for the duration of the journey. Colonel Adolf Galland, charged with the task for the Luftwaffe, had mostly formidable Me-109’s and FW-190’s at his disposal, along with Me-110’s. From the start of the journey, Ciliaz could expect a minimum of 16 fighters covering his force and a maximum of 32. When he got near to the Straits of Dover, this number would be increased significantly.

http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/operation_cerberus.htm

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Reply #20 - Jul 30^th, 2005 at 7:14am

Hagar Offline
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Strange how this thread has wandered off-topic. Goering was faced with the same problems as any commander-in-chief. I don't think he was as stupid or incompetent as he's usually portrayed. All commanders rely on subordinates to advise on new tactics & keep them informed on day-to-day events. The sensible & successful ones take note of what these advisers tell them. It seems a trait of the Nazi hierarchy to blame their subordinates for their own mistakes instead of listening to their advice. Goering might also have been scared for his own job & even his life. Hitler did not like being told he was wrong although I believe he trusted Goering more than perhaps he realised. Goering had been a fit & competent airman, an officer of the old school. I think the huge responsibilty of running the Luftwaffe under a leader like Hitler turned him in to the bloated, caricature of himself he was to become in later years.

Quote:

Goering was not actually blind to reality. I would occasionally hear him make perceptive comments on the situation. Rather, he acted like a bankrupt who up to the last moment wants to deceive himself along with his creditors. [His] Capricious treatment and blatant refusal to accept reality had already driven the first chief of Air Force Procurement, the famous fighter pilot Ernst Udet, to his death in 1941.

Albert Speer, Inside the Third Reich (1970)

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Reply #21 - Aug 2^nd, 2005 at 2:17am

H Offline
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Quote:

Strange how this thread has wandered off-topic. Goering was faced with the same problems as any commander-in-chief. I don't think he was as stupid or incompetent as he's usually portrayed. All commanders rely on subordinates to advise on new tactics & keep them informed on day-to-day events. The sensible & successful ones take note of what these advisers tell them. It seems a trait of the Nazi hierarchy to blame their subordinates for their own mistakes instead of listening to their advice. Goering might also have been scared for his own job & even his life. Hitler did not like being told he was wrong although I believe he trusted Goering more than perhaps he realised. Goering had been a fit & competent airman, an officer of the old school. I think the huge responsibilty of running the Luftwaffe under a leader like Hitler turned him in to the bloated, caricature of himself he was to become in later years.

I suppose the "Re:" should be changed since the only direct connection seems to be in the "sub"ordinates reference (also having their important roles in submarines).
I agree with your description of the "Nazi hierarchy" but abstain from such regarding Göring. My reference to Udet came up because my studies for my WW1 campaign went off track (encyclopedias & dictionaries provide such a danger). There was a reference somewhere that, just before his suicide, Udet had written, "Eiserner, warum hast du mich verlassen?" (Heretic may better translate this). I believe Eiserner was Göring's nickname and the rest is "why have you foresaken me?" Udet (who was never a confirmed Nazi Party member), being blamed for anything and everything, had recently sought support from Göring (who refused Udet's resignation, yet put blame on him).
WW1 was a different war; not as chivilrous as sometimes perceived but more so than WW2, an officer not only was responsible for his subordinates but he was expected to fend for them (Göring became Udet's commander in WW1). Even M.vonRichthofen was known to stay away from the fray and attack an enemy getting the jump on one of his own. The nickname "Snoopy" may have been applied to A.Roy Brown for the same reason (as he flew above his flight and attacked anyone threatening them). Udet found this code broken by the Göring of the Nazi regime (the more I've noted of Göring, however, I question whether he truly had concern for his subordinates in WW1 but rather went through the "actions" to further his own advancement). I would agree that Udet may have been an officer 'of' the old school but Göring may have only been an officer 'in' the old school.

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Reply #22 - Aug 2^nd, 2005 at 2:46am

Hagar Offline
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You could be correct. I've never studied the history of Goering in depth. Jealousy & ambition are not confined to Germans or Nazis. For example: what happened to Air Chief Marshal Sir Hugh Dowding after the Battle of Britain was a national disgrace.

Quote:

Somehow, the Battle of Britain has become associated with the name of Churchill, because of his leadership and oratory. Many, perhaps most, thought then, and still think today, that "the future of the world rested on his shoulders." They were, and are, mistaken. We could have won the Battle of Britain without Churchill, but there was one man without whom we could not have won it - the commander-in-chief of Fighter Command, Hugh Dowding.

Dowding not only created Fighter Command from the ground up and prepared it for war when it came; he also out-thought and out-fought the enemy and thereby changed the course of history by making of Great Britain an unsinkable platform from which the great assaults which would eventually topple Nazi Germany could be unleashed in the years ahead.

Why then is the name of the victor of this Battle virtually unknown? Why is there not a second column in central London beside that of Nelson? Are you ready for a shock? The Air Ministry sacked Dowding in November 1940, just three weeks after the Battle of Britain was won. Moreover, the Air Council connived in the appointment to Dowding's command of an air marshal who had been scheming throughout the Battle to undermine Dowding's authority and to usurp his position. This usurper, though quite unfit for his new command, nevertheless prospered throughout the war.

There is more. In 1941 the Air Ministry published an official account entitled The Battle of Britain. It concludes with these words: "Such was the Battle of Britain. Future historians may compare it with Marathon, Trafalgar and the Marne." Yet the name of Dowding is nowhere mentioned in it, or his existence even alluded to. The suppression of Dowding's role in the victory was deliberate. The Air Ministry put out an 'explanation' that is as close to a lie as an official statement can be. From that day onward the Air Ministry denied Dowding all recognition, reward and promotion for accomplishments that can only be called heroic.

http://www.woodfieldpublishing.com/index.html?lang=en-uk&target=p115.html

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Reply #23 - Aug 2^nd, 2005 at 8:50am

Heretic Ex Member

Quote:

"Eiserner, warum hast du mich verlassen?"
[...] and the rest is "why have you foresaken me?"

Correct.

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Reply #24 - Aug 23^rd, 2005 at 2:12am

turbo_skylane Offline
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was hitler burried in a cemetary?

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Reply #25 - Aug 23^rd, 2005 at 5:49am

Heretic Ex Member

a) No.
b) Who wanted to bury him anyways?
c) His and Eva Braun's bodies were burned.
d) The only thing left of him is a piece of skull somewhere in the depth of some russian archives.

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Reply #26 - Sep 21^st, 2005 at 5:55am

Bombardier101 Offline
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I would say d)! Grin

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