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Landing practice for the space shuttle... (Read 407 times)
Jul 12th, 2005 at 9:20am

gn85   Offline
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I was just watching the news this morning and they were saying how the astronauts were doing practice landings with the small Grumman jets.  The reporter was saying that the space shuttle comes in considerably faster than a normal plane.  Of course he didn't actually say at what rate the space shuttle or these practice jets come in at.  Anybody have an idea??
 
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Reply #1 - Jul 12th, 2005 at 9:25am

ozzy72   Offline
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On final she'll be a little faster but not significantly. But I believe during re-entry she can get up to Mach 20something. I'd have to check that but she is FAST!
 

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Reply #2 - Jul 12th, 2005 at 10:54am

gn85   Offline
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Yes, I know it's moving pretty fast when it re-enters.  Takes a whole continent to scrub off speed. Smiley

The way the reporter was talking, it sounded like he was referring to rate of decent moreso than actual airspeed.
 
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Reply #3 - Jul 12th, 2005 at 6:09pm

OTTOL   Offline
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Unless they've changed things....they used to use a Gulfstream II (not a Grumman) to practice landings. The aircraft has it's weight-on-wheels switches "squat switches" rigged to ground mode and they deploy the T/R's to duplicate the shuttle's steep descent profile.
 

.....so I loaded up the plane and moved to Middle-EEEE..........OIL..that is......
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Reply #4 - Jul 12th, 2005 at 8:07pm

Rifleman   Offline
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From Nasa KSC HERE, you can get more of the mission profile..........

Quote:
The approach and landing trajectory capture phase begins at the TAEM interface and continues to guidance lock-on to the steep outer glide slope. The approach and landing phase begins at about 10,000 feet altitude at an equivalent airspeed of 290, plus or minus 12, knots 6.9 nautical miles (7.9 statute miles) from touchdown. Autoland guidance is initiated at this point to guide the orbiter to the minus 19- to 17-degree glide slope (which is over seven times that of a commercial airliner's approach) aimed at a target 0.86 nautical mile (1 statute mile) in front of the runway. The spacecraft's speed brake is positioned to hold the proper velocity. The descent rate in the later portion of TAEM and approach and landing is greater than 10,000 feet per minute (a rate of descent approximately 20 times higher than a commercial airliner's standard 3-degree instrument approach angle).

At 1,750 feet above ground level, a preflare maneuver is started to position the spacecraft for a 1.5-degree glide slope in preparation for landing with the speed brake positioned as required. The flight crew deploys the landing gear at this point.

The final phase reduces the sink rate of the spacecraft to less than 9 feet per second. Touchdown occurs approximately 2,500 feet past the runway threshold at a speed of 184 to 196 knots (213 to 226 mph).



TAEM=Terminal Area Energy Management
 

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Reply #5 - Jul 12th, 2005 at 10:17pm

JBaymore   Offline
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19 degree glideslope  Shocked  Shocked  Shocked

Flys like a brick.

I remeember lading that thing back in "Orbiter" days....... it just falls out of the sky.

best,

.................john
 

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Reply #6 - Jul 12th, 2005 at 10:53pm

Felix/FFDS   Offline
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Quote:
Unless they've changed things....they used to use a Gulfstream II (not a Grumman) to practice landings. 


Technically, as I understand it, Grumman did start out the Gulfstream series - first with the G-159 Gulfstream I, then the G-1159 Gulfstream II ...  with the passing of time, etc. the business aircraft became a separate business, Gulfstream American, etc. etc.  So calling them "Grummans" may not be current, but not completely incorrect?




 

Felix/FFDS...
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Reply #7 - Jul 13th, 2005 at 6:26am

gn85   Offline
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Thanks for the great answer.  I was thinking of trying this with flight sim.  Wow, that does come out of the air like a stone.  It's a little decieving to watch on TV.
 
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Reply #8 - Jul 13th, 2005 at 10:26pm

MattNW   Offline
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Quote:
19 degree glideslope  Shocked  Shocked  Shocked

Flys like a brick.

I remeember lading that thing back in "Orbiter" days....... it just falls out of the sky.

best,

.................john



Things are a little better in the more recent releases with the improved atmosphere flight model but it still feels like trying to fly an 18 wheeler.
 

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Reply #9 - Jul 14th, 2005 at 6:30am

jrpilot   Offline
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What would happen if they had to do a go around?, since there speed would drop very fast.
 
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Reply #10 - Jul 14th, 2005 at 9:12am

gn85   Offline
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Quote:
What would happen if they had to do a go around?, since there speed would drop very fast.



Don't think there is such a thing as a 'go-around'.  Can't engage engines obviously.  They have 10,000 ft. of runway and don't exactly have to worry about 'traffic'. Smiley
 
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Reply #11 - Jul 14th, 2005 at 1:59pm

Ivan   Offline
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Buran had a planned go-around capability... the one that was parked in Sydney has the engine stuff for flight testing, but a go-around system most likely would look the same
 

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Reply #12 - Jul 15th, 2005 at 6:54am

beaky   Offline
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Quote:
What would happen if they had to do a go around?, since there speed would drop very fast.


gn85 is right: Landing the Orbiter is a one-shot deal, because at that point, it's a big glider. But between the flight control computers and the skill of the pilots, they usually make very precise landings; don't think there's ever been an overrun or anything like that, despite the fact that it comes over the fence at speeds in excess of 200 mph.
Here's a link I found to an article about the Gulfstream program...
http://www.aviationnow.com/content/ncof/lo_nfm05.htm
 

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Reply #13 - Jul 18th, 2005 at 11:57am

Chris E   Offline
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yeah, once they are coming in, they are coming in, no stopping it, no go arounds, nothing
 

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Reply #14 - Jul 18th, 2005 at 9:41pm

beefhole   Offline
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Quote:
They have 10,000 ft. of runway and don't exactly have to worry about 'traffic'. Smiley

They've gotta have more than 10,000' at the landing sites-I know Titusville is 15,000.
 
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