Argh..   Once more before I go to the beach.

I have gone to great lengths to stress that I am not trying to say the USAF kicks everybody elses ass, we have the best pilots, and we are 100% ironclad unbeatable.

Felix, I don't know what the point of your post was (agreement/mockery/criticism/whatever), but, yes that's what I'm saying (although I didn't say #3, somebody else did).  It would appear as though every item on that list is true, to the extent of my knowledge.

I continue to say that we're not the best because, AS REQUESTED by the mods, I'm trying very hard to maintain some level of friendly diplomacy here, so this doesn't turn into any more of a pissing match than it already is.  Is it that hard to see?

So, the only two things that I've been saying that matter-

EXPERIENCE
PRACTICE
(in large-scale modern air wars)

THANKYOU CRUMBSO for posting the first thing that actually pertains to my original argument in the last three pages. 

Good points-I personally think (obviously don't have any first-hand experience) that FF incidents are, at most, 50% command's fault, because in the end it's the pilot who is making the id and pulling the trigger-I believe this happened because the convoy didn't have the required something or other that glows when pilots look at it through something-I know, very official, but all I know is there is something that marks friendlies to pilots, placed inside their vehicles.  That doesn't excuse the pilot, of course, and I'm sure we could find other unexplainable FF situations involving US planes.

J, I would agree practice doesn't make perfect-it doesn't mean that we haven't had more of it than most other nations.  Once again, all I'm saying is we've had more practice.  Not that we're the best.  I may THINK, personally, that we're the best, but once again, back to the whole diplomacy thing.  I'm trying to stick to facts here-the primary one I'm using:

-we've been engaged in more modern mass-scale air wars, and whoever participated, it was under US command.

There.  That's my argument.  Man, I should've just posted that the first time

I'll refer to my buddy as Jeff.

Never once has he ever said "yeah, we're the best", he was just telling me how we've gotten really, really good at keeping hundreds of planes in the air0primarily because we've been doing it since 'nam.

I'm hoping that clears it up.

LOL You put up a good fight there & stuck to your guns. Well done Beefy old chap.

I might have wandered a little off-topic but you couldn't expect us to let you get away with a subject line like that now could you? Just remember that confidence is all very well but over-confidence leads to complacency. The bigger the organisation the more unwieldy it becomes. Mistakes are made in wartime & always will be. It's been proven throughout history that the side that makes the least mistakes wins the battle.

Still not sure what this has to do with the Typhoon but I've spouted far too much already.  

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Yes I gathered this was your point but what are you using it to argue? Because the statement is pretty meaningless in itself.

I'm sure that the people in command did not order that pilot to attack the convoy but then it just shows that the pilot is in itself ultimately the most important part of the entire operation. Good infrastructure without pilots being able to spot friendlies for themselves and to use their initiative is bad and it works the other way round.

Don't get me wrong, the USAF is highly skilled and most of the technology was spearheaded by them but others can use that technology with the same proficiency.



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Ditto lol, there have been quite a few posts I have written and then thought twice and not posted in this thread. I would have become even more unpopular than I am

There are alot more wars in the world than the US has anything to do with, including ones we don't ever hear about.


Pete

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I wouldn't go so far as to say that. It's a lot more sophisticated now but the basic principle of fighter control was established during the BoB in 1940. Combined tactical support was developed by the DAF under Sir Harry Broadhurst, first in Africa & then Italy. This was used to great effect by the Allied air forces during & after the Normandy Invasion.
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http://www.usaaf.net/ww2/dday/ddpg4.htm

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The point of my message was simply to summarize the overall points of the discussion, which, the way I see it, in my feeble, crazed mind, we're all debating nuances on the same side of the coin.

As to a certain person's comment on the person I know in DC.... I will neither confirm or deny any assertion I may have made, or will make ...   

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Precisely Kevin. I'm just having a bit of fun winding Beefy up. I enjoy playing Devil's Advocate & I've been trying (unsuccessfully so far it seems) to demonstrate the danger of national pride - a blind, unquestioning faith in your own country. This is often the cause of bitter conflict & can result in outright war - real war. Rather than argue who's best we should be learning to work together, using whatever we might be best at to the common advantage.

Beefy might be young but he's come through admirably without losing his temper or insulting anyone. His replies are well thought out & convincing. Pity everyone can't follow his example.

The argument might well be pointless but this thread has not degenerated into a flame war. This proves it's possible to disagree without upsetting anyone.

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Sorry, I regretted it instantly and never got around to changing it... I started the thread while I was in Aspen with my buddy Casey ("Jeff's" half brother), and he thought it'd be funny If I added the Go America! part.  Once again, I regret it

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Errm ya I just realized that.  It was being used to support my argument that we did infrastructure better.  Sorry bout that.

The entire point of this thread was to argue that the individual characteristics of one aircraft v. another aren't always the most important thing-for example, who would win in a one on one dogfight?  While it might be fun to speculate, it actually isn't as important in the real world, when one side with inferior fighters can keep more them in the air, at a higher altitude, for a longer period of time and coordinate effectively with AWACS, Tankers, etc., they generally have the upper hand.

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Agreed