Simviation Forum - June 22, 1941 - Operation Barbarossa begins

Reply #30 - Jul 23^rd, 2005 at 2:40am

H Offline
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If it wasn't for the Channel, Britain would have fallen as easily as the Low Countries in 1940. The only defense there was was the RAF...which was almost wiped out by September 1940.

But ithe RAF wasn't wiped out; like all else, it depends upon what "channel" you're on -- and the USSR was yet in the Axis entante so there was no major Eastern Front, even. Go figure.

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The russian government did to their soldiers what the nazi government did to theirs, namely filling them with hate against the other side, hence the raping and pillaging and stuff. But the russians did all that on a larger scale than the german soldiers.

Have to rather agree with this, sad as the results were.

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("...the US and Britain were the big winners in the push to Berlin.") Were not. They were more or less a better option for PoW candidates.

Wow, so sorry. Instead of giving these "candidates" an electoral vote, we should have pulled back and allowed the USSR to take over the whole place, then? We could have put all those supplies to better use elsewhere, too! Dang it! Cry

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('The US and British soldiers are not that barbarian as to pillage the German civilians in Berlin!")
No, they wipe out entire cities with bombs instead... Roll Eyes

Ah, yes, it was so peaceful on the British side of the Channel throughout the war. Not a bomb in the sky -- after it had fallen:o. Who dropped how much of what where first:

? And, of course, flattening cities is so much worse than trying to exterminate an entire people, many of whom are supposed to be your own citizens Undecided

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Aussies,eh? They've only seen a small part of the war.

But a not THAT small a part. Admittedly, they were more noticed in WWI.

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Think about it. Most of the Luftwaffe and Wehrmacht was bound to the eastern front. With more Luftwaffe planes in the air, the absolute allied air supremacy could have never been created and any invasion attempt would have been crushed.

It's rather moot. Without the technology and the needed resources to effect it, Nazi Germany would still have worn down. The experienced (to say little of their executions or forced suicides) were still being sent into harms way more often than used to train recruits and, eventually, it would make no difference with everything sitting on the ground with nothing to run it.

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He simply stuffed his nose into his Generals' affairs....and was successful with that at first.

This relates to my above response (thus, I changed the sequence). Actually, he "stuffed" his nose in by becoming "the leader" in the first place. As far as his stuffing it, he was way too successful right up to the last.

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LoL? They weren't even as far as Moskau. And there would have still been Siberia left.

We'll have to admit, they did make a dent -- Stalin was rather taken by surprise. Siberia??? That's little more than a chilling thought, maybe best left on ice:

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Reply #31 - Jul 23^rd, 2005 at 5:00am

Bombardier101 Offline
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No, they wipe out entire cities with bombs instead...

You are right as well! Someone I know survived the Hamburg bombing! Dresden was horrible too. Barbarian. Long-range fighters machinne-gunning anything that moved on the ground. Including a children's choir! That hopefully wasn't the average standard for yankee europe theatre pilots... Undecided

But I was talking about US and British ground soldiers, not about that nut Harris or the RAF Bomber Command or USAAF 8th AF. (RAF Bomber Command I beleive inflicted more civilian suffering though! Angry

).

Those Ruskies think pillaging is fun for others, eh? They did that in other countries as well! (Hungary, I think).

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Aussies,eh? They've only seen a small part of the war.

You are comparing it with the rest of the world. They saw about as much as Italy. Not in land mass atacked, but actual ops. Kokoda? Milne Bay? Darwin? 75 Squadron? They saw even more, in D-Day etc. In fact they saw their fare share of the war!

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Reply #32 - Jul 23^rd, 2005 at 6:10am

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However repulsive it might seem now, the bombing of Dresden was no different to any other target at the time. Due to unsustainable losses during daylight raids & with Germany winning on all fronts RAF Bomber Command was forced to operate at night. Night bombing was none too accurate & area bombing of cities was considered the only effective way to strike back. Don't forget the Luftwaffe used the tactics of indiscriminately bombing civilian targets first with London & Coventry as examples. This is total war we're talking about & awful things happen in total war. You sometimes have to be equally as ruthless as the enemy.

There is still a great deal of controversy about Dresden & various theories as to why a cultural city should be chosen as a target. A lot of political capital has been made out of it, resulting in RAF Bomber Command & its commander being vilified. This explains the reasons as I've always believed them. http://www.afa.org/magazine/oct2004/1004dresden.asp
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Germany surrendered three months later, but by then the world had already begun to hear a "legend" of Dresden, one formed and promoted by Nazi propagandists. According to this legend, the destruction of Dresden was not a valid military operation at all but was at best a vicious attack of questionable value and, at worst, a war crime against defenseless civilians.

The legend grew in postwar years. Dresden was in Soviet-occupied East Germany, and Moscow put the 1945 event fully in the service of anti-American and anti-British propaganda. Many western writers did their part, too. In the 1960s, Kurt Vonnegut's best-selling novel, Slaughterhouse 5, delivered a memorable fictional rendering of Dresden's blazing streets and burned bodies.

Some say it was also used as a demonstration to Stalin of what Western air power could do. Whatever the reason, poor Dresden & its inhabitants was a victim of total war. Although I regret it, nothing I nor anyone else says or does now can change anything. It's no use anyone wringing their hands or apologising as the deed is done & I'm quite sure it was thought right at the time. I'm quite certain that the same thing would have happened to many Japanese towns & cities if those atom bombs had not been dropped. I have no doubt that Germany would have used the same methods on British cities had resources been available.

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Reply #33 - Jul 23^rd, 2005 at 10:26am

Heretic Ex Member

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Who dropped how much of what where first?

Bombs dropped on Germany (in tons):

1940: 10000
1941: 30000
1942: 40000
1943: 120000
1944: 650000
1945: 500000

Bombs dropped on England (in tons):

1940: 37000
1941: 22000
1942: 3300
1943: 2300
1944: 9600
1945: 770

Source: DTV Weltatlas Band 2; ISBN 3-423-03002

The bombing began after german bombers (accidentially?) dropped bombs on residential houses in London's harbor district. The next day, RAF bombers attacked a german city (Wilhelmshafen?) as an act of revenge and Hitler in return wanted Göring to "wipe out all english cities".
So the question about the "who" is highly debatable.

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And, of course, flattening cities is so much worse than trying to exterminate an entire people, many of whom are supposed to be your own citizens .

The Holocaust is a completely different issue.

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The experienced (to say little of their executions or forced suicides) were still being sent into harms way more often than used to train recruits...

Apparently, the non-expert-guided training worked, according to the numbers of "aces" in the Luftwaffe.

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Long-range fighters machinne-gunning anything that moved on the ground. Including a children's choir! That hopefully wasn't the average standard for yankee europe theatre pilots...

No,it wasn't. It only happened to a small extent, fortunately. But disgustingly enough, it happened.

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Don't forget the Luftwaffe used the tactics of indiscriminately bombing civilian targets first with London & Coventry as examples.

But to what extent? The medium sized He-111 could only "tickle" London compared to the "1000 bomber attacks" (Lancasters ->very high payload) of the RAF.

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You sometimes have to be equally as ruthless as the enemy.

"Equally ruthless" would have meant to send in only Blenheims and Wellingtons.

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Reply #34 - Jul 23^rd, 2005 at 10:33am

Hagar Offline
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But to what extent? The medium sized He-111 could only "tickle" London compared to the "1000 bomber attacks" (Lancasters ->very high payload) of the RAF.

Come on Bjorn. You know very well that the Luftwaffe would have used heavy bombers to flatten London & other British cities in 1940. The point is that the Luftwaffe only had medium bombers.

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Reply #35 - Jul 24^th, 2005 at 2:30am

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Bombs dropped:
on Germany, 1940:    10000 tons
on England, 1940:    37000 tons
on Germany, 1945: 500000 tons
on England, 1945:    770 tons
The bombing began after german bombers (accidentially?) dropped bombs on residential houses in London's harbor district. The next day, RAF bombers attacked a german city (Wilhelmshafen?) as an act of revenge and Hitler in return wanted Göring to "wipe out all english cities".

So the question about the "who" is highly debatable.

Your own provided info reduces the debate to being questionably ("?") an accident, which is actually insignificant to the question, but certainly makes it clear as to "WHO" FIRST. Just singling out 1945 (by then most of the tonnage was US-made) for the reference, you may be familiar with the statements, "War is hell" and "Payback's a bitch."

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The Holocaust is a completely different issue.

If it were 1945 "B.C." Annatolia or 1945 A.D. on the planet Neptune: unfortunately, the holocaust you mention was a definite issue of WW2 Europe.
Aside from the holocaust (not sure what was so 'holo' about it -- was quite hardcore) I DO NOT believe that no US soldier ever killed an unarmed, surrendered enemy due to his own personal rage; I verily DO believe it was not outright condoned nor ordered by command. However, there are still some in the US -- children during WW2 -- who never saw their father again because he was shot while an unarmed PoW; this was not only condoned but ordered by command.

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Apparently, the non-expert-guided training worked, according to the numbers of "aces" in the Luftwaffe.

So well, in fact, that we were able to blow many of them out of the sky so they could never threaten us again -- and make aces of our own Roll Eyes

.

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But to what extent? The medium sized He-111 could only "tickle" London compared to the "1000 bomber attacks" (Lancasters ->very high payload) of the RAF.

Londoners were certainly "tickled" pink.

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"Equally ruthless" would have meant to send in only Blenheims and Wellingtons.

Why would the Brits have given Germany Blenheims and Wellingtons -- would Germany have provided them with V1's and V2's? Oh, sorry, they did deliver those -- air mail! So what's the complaint? They got more for less. What a deal!

Heretic, you're rather outnumbered in this forum so, to mitigate the situation a bit, Please Note:
Not every Nazi was a genocidal maniac and, more certainly, not every German ever was.
Because a country's leader is a tumor-brained lunatic doesn't make the entire country's populace such.
Unfortunately, insanity doesn't go hand-in-hand with a lack of ingenuity; when the two are combined it can be devestating to all concerned -- especially one's own.
It is natural to defend one's own -- even when they have caused you the most harm.

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Reply #36 - Jul 25^th, 2005 at 12:23am

Bombardier101 Offline
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You know very well that the Luftwaffe would have used heavy bombers to flatten London & other British cities in 1940. The point is that the Luftwaffe only had medium bombers.

Why didn't they use the Fw200 Kondor more? Ditch the He111! Make the Kondor! They should've realised that was a great bomber.

Churchill should've thought twice before bombing German cities. It was a pure accident that that bomber hit the London houses. So he retaliated, and then Hitler retaliated. Totally crazy!!??!! ??? ??? Lips Sealed

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Reply #37 - Jul 25^th, 2005 at 5:46am

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Churchill should've thought twice before bombing German cities. It was a pure accident that that bomber hit the London houses. So he retaliated, and then Hitler retaliated. Totally crazy!!??!! ??? ??? Lips Sealed

It makes a nice story but I wonder just how much truth there is in that. More than likely, the general view of history has once again been influenced by a film, in this case "The Battle of Britain".
This is the official RAF report for 24/25th August 1940, the night of the alleged accidental bombing of London by a couple of aircraft. http://www.raf.mod.uk/bob1940/august24.html

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By night

Enemy activity was on a widespread and continuous scale over Southern and Western England, South Wales, the Midlands, East Anglia and Yorkshire.

London Central was under 'Red' warning for nearly two hours, and the City of London, Millwall, Tottenham, Islington, Enfield, Hampton, Kingston and Watford were attacked.

Birmingham was visited continuously for over four hours and there were repeated raids in the Devon, Bristol, Gloucester and South Wales areas.

Raids were also reported in the Liverpool, Sheffield, Bradford, Hull and Middlesborough districts, and in Kent, Hampshire, Reading, Oxford and East Anglian districts.

Enemy aircraft also attacked Newcastle and the London area received a second visit.

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Ramsgate. At 1138 hours, an attack was made which resulted in severe damage to the gas works and sulphur plant. Direct hits were made on military headquarters and Customs House. Mains were fractured and houses demolished with many casualties.
Portsmouth was attacked at 1623 hours and the damage in the city was heavy and widespread. Local rail services were affected and two naval units in the harbour were badly damaged. Approximately two hundred are homeless and it is reported that there are at least 55 killed and 225 injured.

London and suburbs were attacked in the early hours and the following districts are reported as having been bombed: Canonsbury Park, Tottenham, Highbury Park, Leyton, Wood Green, Stepney, Islington, Enfield, Hampton Court, Millwall and others. A large fire was started at Fore Street spreading to London Wall. Neill Warehouse, West India Dock, was badly damaged by fire, and Warehouse Nos 3 and 4 are now reported to be ablaze. At 0240 hours, it was reported that the Imperial Tobacco Factory and Carter Patterson's Works in Goswell Road were on fire but only slight damage has since been reported.
The following places were also bombed: Malden, Coulsdon, Feltham, Kingston, Banstead and Epsom.

Hitler reportedly lifted his restrictions on bombing London on September 4th, following the RAF token raid on Berlin on the night of 25/26 August 1940. Bombing was not an exact science in 1940 (it's not an exact science now) & some German bombers might well have missed their target. From what I've read, bomber crews on both sides had little idea of the effect of their bombing on civilians. They couldn't afford to think about it. Their job was to bomb the target as ordered.

The Luftwaffe bombers had been suffering high losses in daylight raids & the RAF fighters were still there waiting for them. Goering was not to know how desperate the situation actually was. His most effective precision bomber, the Ju 87 Stuka, had suffered such high losses by 18th August 1940 that it was permanently withdrawn from the Western Front. I suspect they came to the same decision as RAF Bomber Command, to go over to night bombing. Whatever the reason, it's generally agreed that the decision to target London rather than RAF airfields was the turning point of the BoB. In this case, maybe Churchill wasn't so crazy after all.

PS. Quote:

Why didn't they use the Fw200 Kondor more? Ditch the He111! Make the Kondor! They should've realised that was a great bomber.

Goering's Luftwaffe was built around the Bliztkrieg concept. Swift tactical raids followed up by tanks & troops on the ground. This had proved highly effective throughout Western Europe & also on the Eastern Front. There was no need for a heavy bomber. I don't believe Hitler had seriously considered a prolonged war with Britain, or the US for that matter.

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Reply #38 - Jul 25^th, 2005 at 7:33am

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Why didn't they use the Fw200 Kondor more? Ditch the He111! Make the Kondor! They should've realised that was a great bomber.

The Germans had a couple of good four-engined heavy bomber designs from Junkers and Dornier early in it's rebirth. General Wever was the proponent. Wever came to be a pilot late in his career, and took off in an He.70 without completely checking his controls - the ailerons were still locked right after takeoff. He didn't survive the crash, and with that, the prime mover behind the strategic bombing concept was gone, to be replaced by the cheaper, fast delivery of bombs from Stukas and medium twin engined bombers.

As a heavy bomber, the FW-200 sucked. It's bomb load was barely more than a medium bomber, so it's main strength lay in its long range, ideal for a maritime patrol aircraft.

One thing that has to be factored in all these discuissions is the philosophy behind the air arms. The reborn German Air Force was very much a strike force - ground support - arm. As such, you didn't need long range aircraft. The RAF, in spite of its battles for survival between the wars, almost had a mortal lack of a defense arm, with the grand thinking of "the bombers will always get through". At least with some serious thought on strategic bombing (Trenchard's legacy) the big bombers were developed, none too soon.

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