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Spitfire cowling details (Read 1793 times)
Jun 15
th
, 2005 at 2:41pm
Springer6
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Can anyone tell me what the function is of the shaped metal tunnel on the port engine cowling of all Merlin engined Spitfires. It is just below the front ejector exhaust manifolds.
I have checked this in all all the usual Spitfire books including "The History". but it is not mentioned. I think it could be a cooling intake for the generator which is on the port side of the engine just behind this point.
Some of you Spitfire mechanics out there must know
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Reply #1 -
Jun 15
th
, 2005 at 5:29pm
Hagar
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I've never worked on the Spitfire but I suspect you're correct.
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Reply #2 -
Jun 15
th
, 2005 at 5:51pm
C
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And I'm on the South coast, and ALL my relevant literature's in my new house about 300miles away!
I second what Doug says though...
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Reply #3 -
Jun 19
th
, 2005 at 6:26am
ozzy72
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Aye it is the cooling port for the generator, I've got a gorgeous picture of a Packard Merlin 266 and you can see the generator clearly and it measures up to the cowling perfectly
There are two types of aeroplane, Spitfires and everything else that wishes it was a Spitfire!
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Reply #4 -
Jun 20
th
, 2005 at 8:47am
Springer6
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Thanks all problem solved...
I've just ordered "Spitfire V Manual" from Greenhill Publishing, I hope there will be a reference to this in there.
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Reply #5 -
Jun 20
th
, 2005 at 2:09pm
ozzy72
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I can't remember if there is, but the manual is an invaluable tool for Spitfire lovers
Some amazing and wonderful technical details 8)
There are two types of aeroplane, Spitfires and everything else that wishes it was a Spitfire!
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Reply #6 -
Jun 20
th
, 2005 at 5:17pm
Springer6
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I'll look forward to recieving it then.....
One thing about this generator cooling port ( it was a feature of the Spit from the very first flight of K5054 with the original multi plate cowlings) ..It must have caused a fearsome amount of drag, but was tolerated as a design freature at a time when joints were being filled, high gloss paint being applied and rivets being flushed all to give an extra 3 mph or so.
Although I suppose that , given the electrical insulation available in 1930/40, an overheating generator would have caused even more of a problem.
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Jun 21
st
, 2005 at 4:07am
ozzy72
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The drag isn't that bad as it is the area of the prop-wash, so it gave sufficient cooling without being a burden like the Vokes filter which cost performance in a very noticable way.
There are two types of aeroplane, Spitfires and everything else that wishes it was a Spitfire!
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Reply #8 -
Jun 26
th
, 2005 at 3:13pm
Springer6
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Yes you're right . It is within the propwash, hadn't thought of that.
So is the Vokes filter for that matter , but of course it's a lot bigger. I believe they improved matters a great deal on sand filters with the so called Aboukir filter which gave a lot less drag.
I've been discussing in another forum the effect of dropping the flaps on a Spit. All the writings seem to indicate that it caused a nose down change of trim ( perhaps 15 degrees or so ? ) . Any ideas on the effect on trim of lowering the chassis. Most of the Spit air files ( with the exception of the Just Flight Spit , which has it all wrong, <nose rises 30 deg on lowering flaps!!>) cause a nose drop on lowereing the flaps, but also a drop on lowering the chassis.
Now if you read descriptions of trim changes required given by Spit pilots ( contemporary and modern) they only ever mention it as being required on lowering the flaps.
The reason I ask this is that I wish to tweak my Spit air files to be as accurate as possible
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Jul 1
st
, 2005 at 9:21pm
Rifleman
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In response to your first question about the Spit cowl.....I'm thinking your talking about this area.....
And in response to your question on flaps, here is how I see it.........
When you deploy flaps on an aircraft, an initial pitch-up should be noticed as you begin to change the airfoil section to one of slight undercamber (Glider-style with more lift but also more drag) but as this increased drag starts to diminish the airspeed and the flap angle increases, the lift component is decreased and the nose should drop due to insufficient airspeed at the new angle of attack........nose down will prevent further decay in airspeed, which would eventually cause a stall...
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Reply #10 -
Jul 2
nd
, 2005 at 6:18am
Hagar
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I've always thought of the Spitfire flaps as airbrakes. They have only 2 positions, either UP or DOWN & the DOWN position is almost 90 degrees to the airflow. Theoretically this would cause far more drag than lift & being below the CoG & behind the Centre of Pressure would almost certainly cause a marked nose-down change in pitch. I don't know for certain but any drag below the the COG would have a similar effect so I suspect lowering the undercarriage would affect trim in the same way.
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Reply #11 -
Jul 2
nd
, 2005 at 6:22am
Springer6
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Rifleman,
Yes, your very clear photo identifies the cowling concerned exactly. It must be an inlet for cooling air for the generator, as Ozzy says, it is directly in line with the generator. However I have yet to find a specific written reference to it anywhere in my literature or on the net.
Your aerodynamic description is also correct.
The Spitfire V pilot's notes under "10. General Flying" state :- "Change of trim"....."Undercarriage down--Nose down"...."Flaps- Nose Down".
What the Pilot's Notes do not say is how much change of trim.
I am trying to gather some typical values for this so that I can accurately model an air file for the Spitfire. Most of the air files currently available either get it completely wrong by giving none or a nose up change of trim or give a nose down reaction that seems excessive ( especially for the undercarriage , which I suspect had comparitively little effect).
I am hoping that some Spitfire pilot out there can tell us !
I am going to see the Shuttleworth Collection fly at Old Warden tomorrow and it includes a Spit MkVc. In the unlikely event that I can get near the pilot I'll ask him.
Thanks for your comments.
Springer Dog Six signing off
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Reply #12 -
Jul 2
nd
, 2005 at 6:42am
Springer6
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Hagar,
Yes, your logic cannot be faulted.
Since the undercarriage would have very much less drag than the lowered flaps ( flaps 57 deg. down on the protoype and 85 deg on all production except F24 and Seafire Mk47) and would not be so far behind the CoP ( although lower) , it follows that the lowered undercarriage would cause a much smaller nose down change of attitude than the flaps.
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Reply #13 -
Jul 2
nd
, 2005 at 10:37am
Rifleman
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Springer, I thought you were indicating that intake so I brought it to the front since I could. I took that shot a few weeks back in the Seattle Museum of Flight on the Mothers day weekend.........cheers......... 8)
On the flap issue..........
I do concur with Doug on his assessment of flap effect on pitch, but my explanation was not that of an instant "snap" flap.....it was more of what happens through the gradual application of flaps as they progress from no flap to full flap position........sorry for not clarifying this at the time........
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Reply #14 -
Jul 2
nd
, 2005 at 11:14am
Hagar
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Quote:
On the flap issue..........
I do concur with Doug on his assessment of flap effect on pitch, but my explanation was not that of an instant "snap" flap.....it was more of what happens through the gradual application of flaps as they progress from no flap to full flap position........sorry for not clarifying this at the time........
Your meaning was clear as crystal Ken. I agree that during the initial stages, lowering the flaps would cause a momentary nose-up trim change. I don't know how long it takes to lower (or raise) the flaps* but, on some marks of Spitfire at least, the flaps are operated pneumatically. Pneumatically operated rams usually work much quicker (full travel in a matter of seconds) than their electric or hydraulic equivalents. Having specialised in aircraft pneumatics systems I always assumed this would give full flap almost instantly on the Spitfire so any nose-up effect would be momentary. This is all theory of course as unfortunately I've never flown in a Spitfire & not likely to.
*PS. I should know this as I've overhauled & tested enough Spitfire flap selector valves in my time.
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Reply #15 -
Jul 2
nd
, 2005 at 12:36pm
Springer6
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Yes I think that on all marks of Spit , the flaps were LOWERED by the use of compressed air from the same source as for the brakes. I don't know how long it takes , but it can only be a matter of a couple of seconds. ( I'll try to time it, next time I see a Spit on approach, but it will probably be too distant).
The flaps are RAISED by releasing the air to atmosphere via the flap control valve and the flaps are then raised by a spring box attached to each flap, assisted of course by the slipstream if the a/c is in flight or ground running .This spring return, I would have thought, would be fairly quick.
The undercarriage is raised and lowered by a hydraulic system and speed of operation is therefore dependant upon the speed of the engine driven ( or manual for early a/c ) pump. Therefore for take off, speed of raising is fairly quick for non manual systems , but can be quite slow for lowering if the pilot leaves dropping the chassis until late in the approach with the consequent low engine speed. In an emergency the undercarriage could be lowered ( but not raised) by discharging the contents of a Carbon Dioxide bottle into the downside of the operating ram. In any case I don't think that the lowereing undercarriage would give the initial nose lift that lowering flaps might.
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Jul 2
nd
, 2005 at 1:09pm
Hagar
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Quote:
The undercarriage is raised and lowered by a hydraulic system and speed of operation is therefore dependant upon the speed of the engine driven ( or manual for early a/c ) pump. Therefore for take off, speed of raising is fairly quick for non manual systems , but can be quite slow for lowering if the pilot leaves dropping the chassis until late in the approach with the consequent low engine speed. In an emergency the undercarriage could be lowered ( but not raised) by discharging the contents of a Carbon Dioxide bottle into the downside of the operating ram. In any case I don't think that the lowereing undercarriage would give the initial nose lift that lowering flaps might.
As the undercarriage legs aren't control surfaces they would cause pure drag, except when fully retracted.
I wouldn't expect them to give any extra lift in any position.
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Reply #17 -
Jul 2
nd
, 2005 at 1:19pm
ozzy72
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As the flaps are lowered they should give a brief second or two of lift whilst getting to the down position, then they really are airbrakes!
Another thing to remember with the U/C down is overheating as the U/C disrupts the airflow to the radiator(s)/oil-cooler, so you can only have them down for a short time before your Merlin starts cooking
There are two types of aeroplane, Spitfires and everything else that wishes it was a Spitfire!
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Reply #18 -
Jul 2
nd
, 2005 at 1:36pm
Springer6
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Yeah ,
I think the drill was raise flaps on landing as you slowed to a fast walking speed . Five shillings fine at Operational Training units for taxiing with flaps lowered and another five shillings fine if you boiled the glycol coolant as a result!
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Reply #19 -
Jul 2
nd
, 2005 at 1:36pm
Hagar
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Quote:
Another thing to remember with the U/C down is overheating as the U/C disrupts the airflow to the radiator(s)/oil-cooler, so you can only have them down for a short time before your Merlin starts cooking
I think this is only while they are in transit. If they jam half-way, as they often did, you have problems.
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Reply #20 -
Jul 2
nd
, 2005 at 1:44pm
ozzy72
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I read of a case of a Seafire III in the Med having to do an emergency deck landing with a U/C jammed down problem and the engine was cooked by the time he got on the deck after having flown only a couple of circuits...
There are two types of aeroplane, Spitfires and everything else that wishes it was a Spitfire!
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Jul 2
nd
, 2005 at 1:53pm
Springer6
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A Shuttleworth Collection pilot , Neil Williams , in describing his experience of flying the collection's MkVc says that with the single radiator models , even taxiing slowly causes coolant temprature to rise alarmingly as the starboard undercarriage leg is masking the radiator .
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Reply #22 -
Jul 2
nd
, 2005 at 1:55pm
C
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Lowering flaps will result in a nose down pitch in most aircraft (rearward movement of the CofP?) - I'll go and have a look at the XVI pilots notes in a min and check. Lowering the U/C should also produce a slight nose down pitch as they move forward relative to the CofG...
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Reply #23 -
Jul 4
th
, 2005 at 9:04am
Springer6
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At Old Warden yesterday , I had a chat with a pilot who flys their Spitfire VC ( now fitted with standard wing tips as opposed to its original clipped wings ).
He confirmed that lowering the flaps causes a nose down change of pitch. He was unable to say exactly how much as he automatically holds it on the stick whilst trimming out. He felt that lowering the undercarriage caused very little if any change of pitch.
On speed of deployment, he said that if tested on the ground the flaps would deploy "bang instantly" under pneumatic pressure, but in the air when acting against the airflow they would take "a second or two". The flaps powered by their return springs raised equally quickly.
A mechanic , who works on the Spitfire, confirmed that the cowling detail shown in Rifleman's photo was indeed to direct airflow over the Merlin's generator. He pointed out that the Collection's Sea Hurricane also had a similar if less obvious air pick up on the port cowling.
Another pilot who had flown both types pointed out that the Hurricane was very much less prone to overheating than the similarly engined Spitfire , due to it's larger centrally mounted radiator which is not masked by either flaps or undercarriage.
Another interesting aspect of seeing these two birds fly together at close quarters was the noticable difference in their sounds ( even though they are powered by similar engines and props. The Spitfire has a distinctive "whistling sound" in flight that can be heard above the general roar of the Merlin . I understand that this "whistling" is caused by the air passing through the Morris type radiator. Apparantly this sound was not present with the early Serck type radiators.
The flying aircraft housed at Old Warden range from a 1910 Bristol Boxkite to a 1946 Chipmunk. The staff are friendly and informative and it's a beautiful location. I recommend a visit.
http://www.shuttleworth.org/shuttleworth/index.htm
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Reply #24 -
Jul 4
th
, 2005 at 9:15am
Hagar
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I was at Old Warden yesterday & also spoke to a pilot on this subject. He confirmed what you've just written. I was surprised when he said that lowering the undercarriage doesn't usually affect trim a great deal. On the subject of overheating in the air, this is when power is applied with the undercarriage extended as the legs partially block the radiator intake(s).
PS. I really enjoyed yesterday's show. Check out my pics in the Photos forum.
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Reply #25 -
Jul 4
th
, 2005 at 11:28am
Springer6
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Great photos Hagar...made up for my rather disapointing results.
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Reply #26 -
Jul 5
th
, 2005 at 3:38pm
C
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Is this turning into the Shuttleworth Collection appreciation soceity? First mention of God's own aeroplane, AR501 (even with its "growths" on the wingtips), and then a mention of one of the greatest pilots and air navigators who has ever grace this earth, the late Flt Lt Neil Williams.
Who did you have the fortune of a chat with (that question goes to Doug and Springer (Maurice I take it?))?
Maybe I'll put their link back in my sig, and maybe a plug for the SVAS too...
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Reply #27 -
Jul 5
th
, 2005 at 4:04pm
Hagar
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Quote:
Is this turning into the Shuttleworth Collection appreciation soceity? First mention of God's own aeroplane, AR501 (even with its "growths" on the wingtips), and then a mention of one of the greatest pilots and air navigators who has ever grace this earth, Flt Lt Neil Williams.
Who did you have the fortune of a chat with (that question goes to Doug and Springer (Maurice I take it?))?
LOL
I was going to ask you that. I'm terrible with names. Chap with receding hair - don't tell him I said that. Name began with an M - could it have been Rob Millinship? He was standing in front of the Gladiator when I grabbed him for a chat. One of the regular pilots although he told me he hasn't flown the Spitfire - yet.
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Reply #28 -
Jul 5
th
, 2005 at 4:16pm
C
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Sounds very much like Rob Millinship, the "oddball" pilot at the Collection, being a) not current or ex-military and b) not a test pilot, and master aeromodeller of years gone by. Had a nice chat with him at the May show. Felt a bit of a numpty standing in the middle of the flightline with my jeans on though! I was having a discussion at the same show involving a few of the pilots, and the two I knew (from work) were trying to work how long it would take before they would get their hands on the Spit. 7-9 years sounded about average... Having said that, another of the pilots has the hard job of occasionally flying the Sea Fury and Sea Hawk for the RNHF.
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Reply #29 -
Jul 6
th
, 2005 at 3:43pm
Springer6
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Charlie,
The Shuttleworth pilot who I spoke to was in his mid forties with receding hair, about 5' 9". I didn't get the opportunity to ask his name as he was quite busy on the flightline in discussion with mechanics.
He confirmed that he flew the Spitfire , but was not the chap who flew it later in the afternoon display. That pilot was a large military looking guy in his ( late?) fifties with shortish grey hair and a very ruddy complexion.
All the staff, from shop staff to mechanics and pilots were extremely helpfull and friendly. This all contibuted to a marvellous day. It was my first visit to Old Warden ( apart from on the Sim. ) and even though it was a 400 mile round trip for me I will certainly be back.
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Reply #30 -
Jul 6
th
, 2005 at 5:02pm
C
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Quote:
He confirmed that he flew the Spitfire , but was not the chap who flew it later in the afternoon display. That pilot was a large military looking guy in his ( late?) fifties with shortish grey hair and a very ruddy complexion.
Sounds like Gordon McClymont or Tony Haig Thomas...
Quote:
All the staff, from shop staff to mechanics and pilots were extremely helpfull and friendly. This all contibuted to a marvellous day. It was my first visit to Old Warden ( apart from on the Sim. ) and even though it was a 400 mile round trip for me I will certainly be back.
Good to hear!
Myself and Doug (Hagar) are regular visitors...
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