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The Cold War (Read 2362 times)
Reply #75 - Jun 18th, 2005 at 5:23pm

Felix/FFDS   Offline
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We have different opinions on that matter. 

I would maintain that the Israelis won't back down on the dissolution of the State, and the Palestinians/Arabs  won't back down on anything but the dissolution of the State of Israel.

We can - and probably do - differ on the basics of the MIddle East conflict, but the point in which we both agree, as I see it, is that effective dialog cannot happen without there being parties to the negotiation.

We can argue back and forth that the Israelis have, in fact, "backed down" on several occasions, only to have renegade<?> Palestinian group move in with more violence, negating the results of negotiations by the "standard" Palestinian authorities.

Again, I maintain - negotiations fail when either the parties aren't negotiating in good faith or one of the parties really doesn't have the real authority to negotiate.

I must thank you and the others for an interesting  series of posts in which you have refrained from calling me a spiteful, criminal warmonger, and I have not called you a commie pinko liberal wuss... Smiley  Moreover, you did challenge some of my beliefs and reviewed them.  In the end, I don't think you've changed my views on certain SPECIFIC matters, and neither have I changed you on yours, but then, if you and I were doing the negotiations in the Middle East, we'd probably have solved it, eh?

 

Felix/FFDS...
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Reply #76 - Jun 18th, 2005 at 5:29pm

Woodlouse2002   Offline
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Firstly I've come to understand that rarely are peoples opinions changed through discussion.

Secondly my point was that you don't need three parties to have successful negotiations if both sides are willing to negotiate.

Thirdly I believe that negotiations in the middle east with Isreal and Palestine would be far more effective if Isreal pulled out of the West bank and the Gaza strip, both areas that were left to the Palestinians in the original "agreement" to the set up of Isreal.

It's probably best not to get into an argument on the third point. Smiley
 

Woodlouse2002 PITA and BAR!!!!!!!!&&&&Our Sovereign Lord the King chargeth and commandeth all persons, being assembled, immediately to disperse themselves, and peaceably to depart to their habitations, or to their lawful business, upon the pains contained in the Act made in the first year of King George the First for preventing tumults and riotous assemblies. God Save the King.&&&&Viva la revolution!
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Reply #77 - Jun 18th, 2005 at 5:43pm

Felix/FFDS   Offline
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Quote:
It's probably best not to get into an argument on the third point. Smiley


You're ugly, too.  Tongue
 

Felix/FFDS...
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Reply #78 - Jun 18th, 2005 at 5:45pm

Woodlouse2002   Offline
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Quote:
You're ugly, too.  Tongue

I've never had any complaints. Grin Kiss
 

Woodlouse2002 PITA and BAR!!!!!!!!&&&&Our Sovereign Lord the King chargeth and commandeth all persons, being assembled, immediately to disperse themselves, and peaceably to depart to their habitations, or to their lawful business, upon the pains contained in the Act made in the first year of King George the First for preventing tumults and riotous assemblies. God Save the King.&&&&Viva la revolution!
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Reply #79 - Jun 18th, 2005 at 6:09pm

Felix/FFDS   Offline
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Quote:
I've never had any complaints. Grin Kiss



Mom's opinions are biased, and your friends are too polite.   

(Interesting how there's always a "last word".... )

I'll let you have the last word on this..
 

Felix/FFDS...
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Reply #80 - Jun 18th, 2005 at 6:16pm
Heretic   Ex Member

 
Quote:
I would maintain that the Israelis won't back down on the dissolution of the State, and the Palestinians/Arabs  won't back down on anything but the dissolution of the State of Israel.


Understandable.
Imagine you've been living in your house for years, when someone suddely comes and declares your house his, but still allows you to live in it. A few years later, a family of another race/religion/whatever arrives together with the proprietor and they're given a part of your house. You want to protest, but no one listenes to you, not even the other family. In the course of time, the family claims more and more space of your house and leaves its furniture in the parts that actually still belong to you. The rest of the neighbourhood supports the other family without limits, while you have no one to turn to.
I couldn't think of anyone who wouldn't be pissed then...except Jesus maybe.
 
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Reply #81 - Jun 18th, 2005 at 6:43pm

Woodlouse2002   Offline
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Wow. That is exactly the same example that I used when having a discussion about the middle east with my German exchange partner about two years ago. Shocked
 

Woodlouse2002 PITA and BAR!!!!!!!!&&&&Our Sovereign Lord the King chargeth and commandeth all persons, being assembled, immediately to disperse themselves, and peaceably to depart to their habitations, or to their lawful business, upon the pains contained in the Act made in the first year of King George the First for preventing tumults and riotous assemblies. God Save the King.&&&&Viva la revolution!
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Reply #82 - Jun 18th, 2005 at 7:07pm

Woodlouse2002   Offline
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Quote:
Mom's opinions are biased, and your friends are too polite.  

(Interesting how there's always a "last word".... )

I'll let you have the last word on this..

In which case my last words shall be that any ugliness is just an afront to my sparkling personality. Grin


And I managed to get a pun in. Rock on! Grin Grin Grin
 

Woodlouse2002 PITA and BAR!!!!!!!!&&&&Our Sovereign Lord the King chargeth and commandeth all persons, being assembled, immediately to disperse themselves, and peaceably to depart to their habitations, or to their lawful business, upon the pains contained in the Act made in the first year of King George the First for preventing tumults and riotous assemblies. God Save the King.&&&&Viva la revolution!
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Reply #83 - Jun 18th, 2005 at 7:30pm

Felix/FFDS   Offline
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I suggest this scenario...

Supppose that the people coming back were the ones who lived there before you came in, and were thrown out by your neighbors.  Finally, after some time, they come back to their house.  Instead of totally throwing you out, they agree to share the house instead.  Some of your family, though, leave and try to get other houses in the same neighborhood, but your neighbors refuse and pile you back into the house, or stuff you in back rooms of their houses, all the while making public noises about how mean your roommates are.

Add to the mix the fact that while these original tenants went away, some of your relatives would meet them and have long , healthy and peaceful relationships together.
 

Felix/FFDS...
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Reply #84 - Jun 18th, 2005 at 8:17pm
Flt.Lt.Andrew   Ex Member

 
Israelites stole the land.
Viva la Palestine.
This'll probably be deleted so..WOOHOO!

A.
 
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Reply #85 - Jun 18th, 2005 at 8:33pm

Webb   Ex Member
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I don't know how we got from Cold War to Israel v. PLO  but it is both entertaining and educational (in the sense of learning others' views).

Please keep it up and keep it civil.

(Trust me, you don't want to know my political views on the mideast situation.)
 
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Reply #86 - Jun 18th, 2005 at 9:08pm

Felix/FFDS   Offline
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Quote:
Israelites stole the land.
Viva la Palestine.
This'll probably be deleted so..WOOHOO!

A.



Throw the bloody Anglos out of Oz!  Give it back to the Aborigines!

Throw everybody out of everywhere!
 

Felix/FFDS...
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Reply #87 - Jun 19th, 2005 at 9:02am

Woodlouse2002   Offline
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I like jam.
Cornwall, England

Gender: male
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Quote:
I suggest this scenario...

Supppose that the people coming back were the ones who lived there before you came in, and were thrown out by your neighbors.  Finally, after some time, they come back to their house.  Instead of totally throwing you out, they agree to share the house instead.  Some of your family, though, leave and try to get other houses in the same neighborhood, but your neighbors refuse and pile you back into the house, or stuff you in back rooms of their houses, all the while making public noises about how mean your roommates are.

Add to the mix the fact that while these original tenants went away, some of your relatives would meet them and have long , healthy and peaceful relationships together.

They only agreed to share with the Palistinians because you cannot displace one nation for the sake of another and because thats what was decided by Britain and America when it was decided to reinstate Isreal. When the Jews were forced out of Isreal by the Romans it was the Palistinians who were left, they have been there just as long as the Isrealis and are no less deserving of their land. When Isreal was recreated after WWII the Palistinians may not have liked it but they did move into the West Bank and Gaza strip while the Isrealis occupied the rest of the country and every single arab nation in the Middle east immediately vowed to wipe Isreal off the map. This lead them to declare war on Isreal and Isreal with American support and weapons beat them all and occupied it some new ground in the areas given to the Palistinians.

I hate to have to say this but the creation of Isreal, although done with good intentions is the cause of most trouble in the world today.
 

Woodlouse2002 PITA and BAR!!!!!!!!&&&&Our Sovereign Lord the King chargeth and commandeth all persons, being assembled, immediately to disperse themselves, and peaceably to depart to their habitations, or to their lawful business, upon the pains contained in the Act made in the first year of King George the First for preventing tumults and riotous assemblies. God Save the King.&&&&Viva la revolution!
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Reply #88 - Jun 19th, 2005 at 9:20am

Felix/FFDS   Offline
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Quote:
When Isreal was recreated after WWII the Palistinians may not have liked it but they did move into the West Bank and Gaza strip while the Isrealis occupied the rest of the country and every single arab nation in the Middle east immediately vowed to wipe Isreal off the map.


So, instead of letting the Palestinians and Israelis work out their living arrangements, their dear neighbors plunged forth into continuing wars?



Quote:
This lead them to declare war on Isreal and Isreal with American support and weapons beat them all and occupied it some new ground in the areas given to the Palistinians.

I'll grant that American money - and I wold propose mostly private fund raising - played a significant part - but most weapons were British, and/or British origin, with a significant helping of Czech weaponry.  (this paragraph as a point of information only, I do not dispute that foreign assistance has played a significant part in the various "hot" wars.)

Quote:
I hate to have to say this but the creation of Isreal, although done with good intentions is the cause of most trouble in the world today.


Whether I agree or not with the basic premise of the justification of the existence of a State of Israel, I would agree with you on this statement.
 

Felix/FFDS...
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Reply #89 - Jun 19th, 2005 at 9:27am

Woodlouse2002   Offline
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Quote:
So, instead of letting the Palestinians and Israelis work out their living arrangements, their dear neighbors plunged forth into continuing wars?

They sought to solve the living arrangements by the removal of the Isreali's. Setting up Isreal is a bit like turning Utah into a communist utopia. For one reason or another it might seem like a good idea but none of the neighbours would want it or stand for it.
 

Woodlouse2002 PITA and BAR!!!!!!!!&&&&Our Sovereign Lord the King chargeth and commandeth all persons, being assembled, immediately to disperse themselves, and peaceably to depart to their habitations, or to their lawful business, upon the pains contained in the Act made in the first year of King George the First for preventing tumults and riotous assemblies. God Save the King.&&&&Viva la revolution!
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