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Servo "Whiskey Compass"...will this work? (Read 7369 times)

Apr 18^th, 2005 at 8:34pm

JBaymore Offline
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So one of the things I really want to have for some added realism is the Whiskey Compass on the windscreen center post turning as the plane comes around.

So I had this idea for creating one. With all of the parts for this....... it should be able to be done for under $60....... including the single Phidget servo controller, the servo, the mods to the servo, the car compass, and the housing. If I go for the four unit servo controller (want some other guages too later) the cost for the one part here goes down a tad.

So please take a look a the diagram I have drawn below... and tell me if this will work... or if it won't.

Key to this idea is modifying the HS-322 for 360 degree rotation. This servo is only about $10.00 Wink

Wink

.

Thanks.

best,

..................john

Intel i7 960 quad 3.2G LGA 1366, Asus P6X58D Premium, 750W Corsair, 6 gig 1600 DDR3, Spinpoint 1TB 7200 HD, Caviar 500G 7200 HD, GTX275 1280M, Logitec Z640, Win7 Pro 64b, CH Products yoke, pedals + throttle quad, simpit

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Reply #1 - Apr 18^th, 2005 at 11:10pm

TacitBlue Offline
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I honestly dont know, but Im new at this stuff. I would say, get the magnet and compass and try it out w/ out the servo before buying the expensive stuff.

A&P Mechanic, Rankin Aircraft 78Y

Aircraft are naturally beautiful because form follows function. -TB

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Reply #2 - Apr 18^th, 2005 at 11:54pm

SilverFox441 Offline
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Sadly, no it won't work.

Modification to a servo to make it turn 360 degrees removes the feedback ability...the servo no longer knows where it is pointed.

What might work is to add a rotary encoder to the servo output. The encoder could pass the position back to the Phidget so that the system would know where the output was. I don't think that the programming exists in FS2Phidgets to use that feedback, but the guy who wrote it seems cool and might add the capability if asked nice.

I do like the idea of magnetically coupling the pices together...vary the distance slightly and you can get the typical "Whiskey Compass Hunt" and is lags behind and the oscillates and overswings a little bit.

For my own Whiskey compass I was thinking of gearing a standard servo output by 1:4...the output is then 360, plus a little bit of available over travel. The only hangup is that when rotating past end-of-travel points the servo would have to swing all the other way around. Sad

Sad

I can live with that limitation...but if the software can be tweaked to allow your idea, well I'll go another way.

Steve (Silver Fox) Daly

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Reply #3 - Apr 19^th, 2005 at 5:10am

SAto Offline
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Quote:

So one of the things I really want to have for some added realism is the Whiskey Compass on the windscreen center post turning as the plane comes around.

Key to this idea is modifying the HS-322 for 360 degree rotation. This servo is only about $10.00 Wink

Wink

.

I think this sould work, I haven't worked with servos at all though I'm using step motors (because I get them for free

).
You should be able to tell how far the servo has travelled based on how many pulses you've given it. or however they work. Then you need to provide a reference for it to know where it starts up. You could use an optical interuptor and spin the motor until the interruptor is blocked. Then you have a starting point and can start to rotate the motor to the desired position.

As I stated I've never worked with Servos and don't really know how they work and I've never used phidgets either.
But I think Simkits altimeter works this way, maybe their compass does as well. Could be an idea to check out their assembly manuals, they are found online at http://www.simkits.com/brochures.php

This is the way I'm going to do it (using steppers though)

-SAto

&&SAto&&http://duckparty.no/pit/

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Reply #4 - Apr 19^th, 2005 at 6:34am

SilverFox441 Offline
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You're magnetic coupling concept gave me an idea...one which needs no servo at all...and no stepper motors. Cheesy

Cheesy

What we need to do is create a large "air core" magnetic instrument. An air core instrument movement is capable of rotating the magnetic field around 360 degrees...and would over-ride the Earth's magnetic field at close range. The compass would think it was reading correctly...but we fool it. Feedback isn't needed...there's no way in the physical universe for the reading to get wrong in the first place once it's aligned!

I have to dig back into my books for EM field creation...but this is doable and would be very easy to have programmed into a FS2Phidget...only you would need the output from three channels of a digital output board or a dedicated controller...I'll have to see hwat I can figure out.

Steve (Silver Fox) Daly

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Reply #5 - Apr 19^th, 2005 at 7:39am

SAto Offline
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Quote:

What we need to do is create a large "air core" magnetic instrument. An air core instrument movement is capable of rotating the magnetic field around 360 degrees...and would over-ride the Earth's magnetic field at close range. The compass would think it was reading correctly...but we fool it. Feedback isn't needed...there's no way in the physical universe for the reading to get wrong in the first place once it's aligned!

That's a good idea!
Don't know how strong the magnetic field is but as previously stated a little lag would actually increase realism.

My problem with this is generating the sine cosine signals to the instrument. Know there are some specialty circuits to do this but they are not easy to come by.
Might do it with a PIC though...

&&SAto&&http://duckparty.no/pit/

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Reply #6 - Apr 19^th, 2005 at 5:48pm

SilverFox441 Offline
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I had an idea that is useable in more places...and doesn't require handling the air-core driver circuits.

It also has a better chance of being implemented into FS2Phidgets...the basic function is useful for more than just FS. Thanks to SAto for mentioning optical interrupters...I knew there was an easier way to do what was required that I was forgetting.

Same exact setup as the original...except we add an optical encoder disk, an optical encoder and the encoder input to the mix. Using this system the system would basically use "dead-reckoning" based on known rotation rate and duration of rotation. The encoder disk/interrupter will allow the system to self-calibrate and to re-calibrate continuously as it rotates.

What the Encoder would like like. This has only 4 encoded positions...there is no reason it couldn't have even more:

Steve (Silver Fox) Daly

&&

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Reply #7 - Apr 20^th, 2005 at 5:46am

SAto Offline
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Quote:

Same exact setup as the original...except we add an optical encoder disk, an optical encoder and the encoder input to the mix. Using this system the system would [img]

If you've got access to discarded printers many of them have such encoder disks in them (much greater resolution though) combined with DC motors... suppose it's cheaper than step motors.

Maybe you could use them, even the circuitry in the printer to read this could be used...

As I'm working on a <50$ budget for the entire pit I need to scavange everything, buying the phidget is not an option for me. But luckily I have access to a lot of scrapped
but working computer equipment.

&&SAto&&http://duckparty.no/pit/

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Reply #8 - Apr 20^th, 2005 at 12:22pm

TacitBlue Offline
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$50!? I spent that much building my rudder pedals!

John, I have the solution! turn this into a full motion pit, then you wont have to do anything to the compass. Tongue

Tongue

A&P Mechanic, Rankin Aircraft 78Y

Aircraft are naturally beautiful because form follows function. -TB

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Reply #9 - Apr 20^th, 2005 at 1:52pm

SilverFox441 Offline
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Tacit...that doesn't solve the problem. Sad

Sad

It just transfers it from the Whiskey Compass to the Cockpit Heading Sensor...the exact same problem will appear there in your plan.

Steve (Silver Fox) Daly

&&

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Reply #10 - Apr 20^th, 2005 at 3:58pm

TacitBlue Offline
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LOL, I know.

A&P Mechanic, Rankin Aircraft 78Y

Aircraft are naturally beautiful because form follows function. -TB

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Reply #11 - Apr 20^th, 2005 at 6:44pm

SAto Offline
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Quote:

$50!? I spent that much building my rudder pedals!

Yeah I know... hopefully my financial situation will pick up...
But I'm pretty lucky getting a lot of needed materials for free.
Old Computers, printers, discarded metal shelves etc. Provide almost everything I need. Oh and free samples from semiconductor companies

&&SAto&&http://duckparty.no/pit/

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Reply #12 - Apr 21^st, 2005 at 10:12am

TacitBlue Offline
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Not a thing wrong with free stuff. Ive gotten all of my hard drives for free.

A&P Mechanic, Rankin Aircraft 78Y

Aircraft are naturally beautiful because form follows function. -TB

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Reply #13 - May 1^st, 2005 at 8:52pm

JBaymore Offline
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So.... thinking about this issue for the "Whiskey Compass"........

If a servo can be set up with gears to rotate for a full 360 degrees even though it cannot fully go that far ....... not full unlimited rotation...... maybe the compass thing is still doable with only a minor "hiccup".

As the aircraft turns, using the magnetic coupling technique between the servo's position (holding the bar magnet) and the actual compass indicator, when the servo reaches the end of its travel to say 360 degrees...... it suddenly and QUICKLY will then go back to see the position for a 1 degree heading.

It is POSSIBLE that the real magnetic compass will not actually "follow" the fast rotation of the bar magnet back, and the magnet will get to the 1 degree position fast enough that there will just be a small heading "bobble" for an instant whenever the plane crosses the 360 degree / 1 degree heading point.

Thoughts on this?

best,

.......................john

Intel i7 960 quad 3.2G LGA 1366, Asus P6X58D Premium, 750W Corsair, 6 gig 1600 DDR3, Spinpoint 1TB 7200 HD, Caviar 500G 7200 HD, GTX275 1280M, Logitec Z640, Win7 Pro 64b, CH Products yoke, pedals + throttle quad, simpit

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Reply #14 - May 1^st, 2005 at 9:24pm

SilverFox441 Offline
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I think the "bobble" will be fairly noticeable...but with a fast servo it might not be too bad.

A Hitec 322 servo has a 60 deg travel time of .19 sec a 5V. Geared for 360 deg would load it up a bit...so make it .25/60 deg. You would need to gear it 5/1 (approx 80 degree servo travel would give you 400 deg total travel). Make the end rotation .05 sec/60 deg.

You might just be able to "lose" the compass for a moment, catching it as you come back around .3 seconds later.

The real trick will be careful spacing of the magnet to override the compass... but allow it to get lost when wanted.

If that doesn't work there is a way to modify it so that it does:

Replace the bar magnet with a low powered electromagnet (hand wind one...it's easy). Power this magnet at all time except when crossing the 360 deg point. At 360 release the electro and apply power to a second magnet, a "holder". The holder hangs on to the compass until the servo swings back around and then releases it to the original magnet.

This is much more complex...and quite probably unnecessary. You should be able to build it the way you last described.

You can find gears here: http://www.servocity.com/html/gears___sprockets.html

Steve (Silver Fox) Daly

&&

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Reply #15 - May 1^st, 2005 at 11:10pm

JBaymore Offline
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Steve,

Once again..... thanks for the input. I kinda like the electromagnet idea........ IF the "quick spin" disconnect approach does not work ( Occam's Razor ...K.I.S.S. ... and so on Wink

Wink

).

The electromagnet could be powered by one of the Phidget digital output boards and triggered by FS2Phidget reading the Whiskey Compass heading at 360 degrees.

A one minute 360 degree turn is 6 degrees per second or .16 seconds per degree. So if your estimate of the "pickup time" of .3 seconds works out...... there is about a 2 degree "screw up" potential in there. If the electromagnet fires off the 360 degree point for .16 seconds as the airctraft comes thru that exact point, that likely cuts the "error potential" down to about 1 degree.

Sounds like this is at least plausable either way. I am dealing with other stuff right now.... but the first step I see in the near future is to do some experiments with an automotive compass and a bar magnet to see how it reacts.

Then get into designing the construction of the physical unit.... and then get into dealing with the servo stuff.

best,

.......................john

Intel i7 960 quad 3.2G LGA 1366, Asus P6X58D Premium, 750W Corsair, 6 gig 1600 DDR3, Spinpoint 1TB 7200 HD, Caviar 500G 7200 HD, GTX275 1280M, Logitec Z640, Win7 Pro 64b, CH Products yoke, pedals + throttle quad, simpit

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Reply #16 - May 2^nd, 2005 at 12:59am

SilverFox441 Offline
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Hey, no problem John...glad to be of assistance!

Of course, once you've worked out the bugs...I get to just build the final version for my pit.

This is the schematic I was thinking of when using electromagnets:

Use one Phidget output to trip the relay and it switches between the two electromagnets...very easy.

Steve (Silver Fox) Daly

&&

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Reply #17 - May 2^nd, 2005 at 10:06pm

SilverFox441 Offline
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John, if all else fails: http://bellsouthpwp.net/b/o/bobpaige/images/Wet%20Compass.JPG

Steve (Silver Fox) Daly

&&

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Reply #18 - May 24^th, 2005 at 5:01pm

JBaymore Offline
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So... I am a little confused about the rotation of servos. Help me out here. In looking at the various units most of the cheaper ones say that they rotate only about 40 to 45 degrees. Is this correct?

So to get just about full 360 rotation (which actually will be about 359 degrees and then swing back around and pick up on the otehr side of the end point)....... I will need to geaar them up substantially.

Is this correct? Or are there small cheap low torque servos (in the $10 to 15 range) that travel more like 180 degrees or more?

best,

................john

Intel i7 960 quad 3.2G LGA 1366, Asus P6X58D Premium, 750W Corsair, 6 gig 1600 DDR3, Spinpoint 1TB 7200 HD, Caviar 500G 7200 HD, GTX275 1280M, Logitec Z640, Win7 Pro 64b, CH Products yoke, pedals + throttle quad, simpit

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Reply #19 - May 24^th, 2005 at 11:58pm

SilverFox441 Offline
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What's confusing you John is a bit of mis-direction by the servo manufacturers...

You will see many servos listed at 45° of travel...but it's not "stop-to-stop" travel. They're actually only listing "centre-to-stop".

Servos typically have "stop-to-stop" travel of 80° to 90°. You would need about a 4-1 gear ratio to cover 360°. I would fudge it a little and go a bit over, using the Phidget software to limit the travel down to what you actually need. It's my understanding that the software can do this easily.

If you check out: http://www.servocity.com/html/hs-322hd_standard_deluxe.html you will see that the travel is listed as Quote:

Operating Angle: 40 Deg. one side pulse traveling 400usec

Count on the 80° travel and use 4.5 or 5 to 1 gearing.

Servocity also has extrenal gears available that should do the trick without any major heartburn. Wink

Wink

Steve (Silver Fox) Daly

&&

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Reply #20 - May 25^th, 2005 at 9:27am

JBaymore Offline
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Quote:

If you check out: http://www.servocity.com/html/hs-322hd_standard_deluxe.html you will see that the travel is listed as

Silverfox,

Thanks! Servocity is exactly one of the sites that I have been looking at.... and those "specs" are VERY misleading. So if a servo says it has 180 degrees of travel in those specs.... does it go 360 degrees? There is one that has 180... although it is quite a bit more expensive (about $30.00 if I remember correctly).

Another confusing point is that "clockwise" business on the direction or rotation. I am assuming that refers to the "positive" direction of travel... and it will rotate BACK to center when the signal tells it to. Am I right?

I picked up a car automotive wet compass yesterday at an autoparts store... for about $7.00. It is a nice size to fit the pit and will mount easily in an enclosure that will hold the servo and magnet and gearing and such.

Had to buy it....... it advertises that it has "aircraft type compensators". Wink

Wink

Now to find a good magnet and start experimenting with the "linkage" issues....... how strong a magnet, how close, how fast it can "follow" the magnet, and so on. Have to see how to deal with that 359 degrees to 1 degree servo travel issue.

best,

....................john

Intel i7 960 quad 3.2G LGA 1366, Asus P6X58D Premium, 750W Corsair, 6 gig 1600 DDR3, Spinpoint 1TB 7200 HD, Caviar 500G 7200 HD, GTX275 1280M, Logitec Z640, Win7 Pro 64b, CH Products yoke, pedals + throttle quad, simpit

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Reply #21 - May 25^th, 2005 at 11:47am

SilverFox441 Offline
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Direction of rotation (the "Clockwise" bit) refers to how the servo behaves to an PWM that is lengthening. If the PWM is shortening the servo will turn counterclockwise. It's a bit hard to figure out for the un-initiated...they get into some esoteric descriptions to provide the info:

Quote:

Control System: +Pulse Width Control 1500usec Neutral

Quote:

Direction: Clockwise/Pulse Traveling 1500 to 1900 usec

At 1500 usec the servo is at neutral, at 1900 usec the servo is at full clockwise and at 1100 usec the servo is at full counterclockwise.

Basically a long-winded way of saying that your assumption of servo direction behaviour is correct.

Now for 180° servos...be very wary of these. The vast majority of 180° servos are not proportional. These are specialty devices generally used for things like landing gear retraction. I've found that it can be very hard to figure out if a servo is proportional or not when talking about 180° servos...they aren't very forthcoming. Total servo travel on these types is 180° to 190°.

One note about using even a proportional 180° servo...it would need to be geared to give you 360° rotation anyway. When you add up the cost of the gearing and the extra cost of the servo it's a more expensive solution.

The compass with the "aircraft style" compensator is a nice touch. You can actually adjust the compensator the same way it would be done in a real plane. There will be some inaccuracy in the system which you can partially correct using the compensator...meaning you will need a compass deviation card. Deviation cards are another "real plane" feature that you will then have added.

Adjusting a compensator can be a frustrating PITA (pain in the ***) if you are unsure how to do it. If the included instructions don't make sense or don't seem to work feel free to ask. Compass calibrations were perversely one of my favourite things after I got the hang of them.

I hope that helps.

Steve (Silver Fox) Daly

&&

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Reply #22 - May 25^th, 2005 at 2:16pm

JBaymore Offline
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Hi all.

OK... did first test of the auto wet compass with a magnet. Learned that I probably will not need anything fancy like an electromagnet "holder" unit to temporarily hold the compass at the 360 degree point as the servo swings back around to the 0 degree position! Grin

Grin

Grin

Grin

The compass follows a small (1" sguare) refridgerator magnet beautifully with the magnet held about 1" above the dome of the compass. There is a tad of a lag as I turned the magnet at something resembling a rate of turn that aircraft make....... which will be quite realistic.

The key point was that if I turned the magnet really fast back around to "catch" the compass pointer before it followed it around.... the compass had enough "lag" that it just "bobbled" there for an instant before picking up the magnet orientation again. So if the tracking of the servo from 359 degrees back to 0 degrees is as quick as I THINK it will be....... this will work just fine without ANY complicated construction or needing another channel of the Phidget output to drive an electromagnet.

More as it all develops. Silverfox... thanks for all the help. You ought to write a "Servos for Dummies" book Wink

Wink

.

best,

.............john

Intel i7 960 quad 3.2G LGA 1366, Asus P6X58D Premium, 750W Corsair, 6 gig 1600 DDR3, Spinpoint 1TB 7200 HD, Caviar 500G 7200 HD, GTX275 1280M, Logitec Z640, Win7 Pro 64b, CH Products yoke, pedals + throttle quad, simpit

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Reply #23 - May 26^th, 2005 at 12:20am

SilverFox441 Offline
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I can't wait to see this develop John!

I know I'll be following your lead and putting one in my 'pit if it works as good as your initial tests seem to indicate.

As for the help...why sweat that minor detail? You know I'll get full value back as soon as my 'pit designs far enough that I'm running into problems that you have already solved.

That's the whole point of a place like this Forum, help each other and help yourself in the process.

Steve (Silver Fox) Daly

&&

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Reply #24 - Jul 5^th, 2007 at 6:19pm

JBaymore Offline
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Well.......... I ordered the Phidgets single motor servo kit to get started on the next phase of this idea. It should be here Monday or Tuesday of next week.

Have to start thinking about the fabrication of the "box" to hold the compass and the way I'll use a LED to light the thing.

Excited to FINALLY get to this idea that has been rumbling around for a LONG time.

best,

....................john

Intel i7 960 quad 3.2G LGA 1366, Asus P6X58D Premium, 750W Corsair, 6 gig 1600 DDR3, Spinpoint 1TB 7200 HD, Caviar 500G 7200 HD, GTX275 1280M, Logitec Z640, Win7 Pro 64b, CH Products yoke, pedals + throttle quad, simpit

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Reply #25 - Jul 6^th, 2007 at 8:30am

JSpahn Offline
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I cant wait to see how things work out on this one. This was the only analog gauge that I wanted to include in my pit. Still havent built anything yet, still planning.

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Reply #26 - Jul 9^th, 2007 at 12:34pm

JBaymore Offline
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Well,....as promised the Phidgets servo interface kit arrived this morning. Soon...... will get to work on the project.

When I do, I'll change the name of this whole thread into the next in sequence of the "Cockpit Construction Part XX" pattern.

best,

.....................john

Intel i7 960 quad 3.2G LGA 1366, Asus P6X58D Premium, 750W Corsair, 6 gig 1600 DDR3, Spinpoint 1TB 7200 HD, Caviar 500G 7200 HD, GTX275 1280M, Logitec Z640, Win7 Pro 64b, CH Products yoke, pedals + throttle quad, simpit

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Reply #27 - Jul 10^th, 2007 at 4:04pm

JBaymore Offline
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First Parts Of Whiskey Compass

Here are the first half of the parts for this part of the project:

The Phidgets servo controller (small enough for you?), the Hitek servo, and the automotove wet compass.

Soon to arrive from Servo City ......... the gears to give me the 360 degrees of rotation I need to accomplish this.

It all creeps forward.....s....l...o....w...l....y . Wink

Wink

best,

.......................john

PS: That servo controller and servo package from Phidgets is the core makings of an analog panel glauge (like for flaps) "on the hoof".

Intel i7 960 quad 3.2G LGA 1366, Asus P6X58D Premium, 750W Corsair, 6 gig 1600 DDR3, Spinpoint 1TB 7200 HD, Caviar 500G 7200 HD, GTX275 1280M, Logitec Z640, Win7 Pro 64b, CH Products yoke, pedals + throttle quad, simpit

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Reply #28 - Aug 20^th, 2007 at 1:01pm

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Errrm im into my RC car racing and i do belive that if you Use a Didital servo and get the correct servo (I think futaba do a very good one) it will work in full rotation and will have the posioning information for controling the servo built in. It should just be a relativly simple thing of pluging the servo in to the controler

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Reply #29 - Aug 20^th, 2007 at 10:26pm

SilverFox441 Offline
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Digital servos still have the rotation limiter built into the geartrain... so no 360 degree continuous rotation for them.

The growing robotics market may see that type of servo developed... but for now we're limited to what is available and cheap.

Steve (Silver Fox) Daly

&&

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