Simviation Forum - LANDING IN 717 , 727, 737, 747 ,A330 AND A330 A330

Reply #15 - Apr 5^th, 2005 at 5:48am

Hagar Offline
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Landing either of those big d-wings must be a real nail-biter, esp. since the engines are underslung at the trailing edge of the wing... a very expensive boo-boo just waiting to happen! Lips Sealed

It might look a tad dodgy to the unitiated eye but I don't recall a single landing incident with Concorde over almost 30 years it was in regular service. A RAF Vulcan crashed many years ago during the approach to Heathrow. This was on its return from Australia after setting a new world record & it had special permission to land at Heathrow. As I recall the fatal accident was due to the very senior but inexperienced (with the Vulcan & the airport) pilot making basic flying errors. Not being familiar with Heathrow wouldn't have helped but there was a reception committee laid on which might have influenced his decision to attempt the landing.

Delta winged aircraft usually have very stable flying characteristics at extremely high angles of attack & low airspeed with no tendency to tip-stall. I've flown delta-winged model gliders & found them impossible to stall, even with full up elevator. In most cases they mush while gradually losing altitude.

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In 1956, with the introduction of the V-Bombers and the rapid response needed to effect a creditable deterrent, it was decided to staff Bomber Command with personnel having some ex-Fighter Command experience. Harry Broadhurst therefore found himself appointed AOC in C, tasked with creating a force capable of reacting rapidly in the event of a nuclear attack. In Oct 1956 it was decided to show off Britain's latest V-Bomber, the Vulcan, by sending one on a world tour. As AOC in C, Harry Broadhurst took part as the co-pilot. After a successful tour the aircraft, XA897, ran into fog on it's return to Britain, but instead of diverting to a different airfield, the pilot elected to attempt a landing at Heathrow where the reception party was laid on. Unfamiliar with Heathrow which was not the large airfield it is today, the aircraft landed short ripping off it's undercarriage. The pilot and Broadhurst were able to eject but unfortunately the remaining four crew members perished in the ensuing crash. A year later, Broadhurst was again in the co-pilot's seat of a Vulcan captained by Wg Cdr F L Dodd, OC - No 230 OCU. Taking off from Waddington at 2:30pm they touched down in Naples at 4:37pm having covered the 1,121 miles in 1 hour 50 minutes at an average speed of 615 mph. Another aspect of Broadhurst's tenure as AOC in C, was the introduction of the Quick Reaction Alert, in which V-Bombers were held at readiness and capable of being airborne within four minutes of receiving the 'scramble' signal.
http://www.rafweb.org/Biographies/Broadhurst.htm

Not sure how true it is but I heard at the time that Harry Broadhurst was flying the aircraft when it crashed.

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Reply #16 - Apr 5^th, 2005 at 2:57pm

C Offline
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The Concorde had no flaps & I'm not sure it has airbrakes.

You're quite right Doug. Instead of having airbrakes like the Vulcan, the Concorde did have reverse thrust. I can imagine they had those instead of a braking parachute to keep turn-around times to a minimum, and decrease labour costs too (retrieving and packing parachutes)...

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Reply #17 - Apr 6^th, 2005 at 4:03am

ChrisM Offline
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Hagar
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The landing procedure for delta-winged aircraft is completely different from conventional aircraft. The high angle of attack is necessary to keep the speed down. Delta wings are very stable at slow speeds & high angles of attack & will not stall in the usual sense. The Concorde had no flaps & I'm not sure it has airbrakes. The Vulcan has airbrakes (not sure about flaps) but unlike the Concorde normally deploys a braking chute after touching down.

Yeah i knew that but 300-500fpm at touchdown is a bit rought isn't it.

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Reply #18 - Apr 6^th, 2005 at 4:23am

Hagar Offline
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Hagar

Yeah i knew that but 300-500fpm at touchdown is a bit rought isn't it.

Chris. I know very little about heavies as I've aready demonstrated in an earlier reply. Embarrassed

I have no idea of the vertical speed of Concorde or any other delta-winged aircraft during approach & landing. I expect it's much the same as any other heavy airliner, whatever that might be.

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Reply #19 - Apr 6^th, 2005 at 4:24pm

C Offline
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I have no idea of the vertical speed of Concorde or any other delta-winged aircraft during approach & landing

This just occured to me. Surely when landing, the vertical speed is in fact 0 fpm*, unless you're on a soft surface or water... Wink

*instantaneously... Wink

« Last Edit: Apr 7^th, 2005 at 3:33pm by C »

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Reply #20 - Apr 6^th, 2005 at 5:12pm

Hagar Offline
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This just occured to me. Surely when landing, the vertical speed is in fact 0 fpm, unless you're on a soft surface or water... Wink

Clever clogs. Tongue

That's what I was trying to point out in my first reply. Roll Eyes

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Reply #21 - Apr 6^th, 2005 at 10:09pm

beaky Offline
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Not to be "that way" but even the most gentle landing has a sinking component to it, however small. That's why landing gear always has some springiness to it- to absorb the energy. There's always that moment when the mass of the plane is still coming down, even after the wheels touch. And if the nosewheel oleo is going south, that moment occurs again and again, until you climb out! Cheesy

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Reply #22 - Apr 6^th, 2005 at 11:05pm

Saratoga Offline
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Two things. a) delta wings do not stall under any conditions. They just run out of lift. No shaking or sudden drop like for example, a Cessna.
b) Concorde's inboard two thrust reverses were deployable in flight (would rip the engines off any modern plane) to allow for some airbraking. Imagine that! Shocked

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Reply #23 - Apr 6^th, 2005 at 11:52pm

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"O, the Lord of Law on the Throne of Thought........."
....you might wanna rethink that one ?.?. Roll Eyes

.....so I loaded up the plane and moved to Middle-EEEE..........OIL..that is......

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Reply #24 - Apr 9^th, 2005 at 6:27am

cobzz Offline
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SOZ people, i am talking about conventional Airliners like
717 , 727, 737, 747 ,A330 AND A330

thanks for the replys Kiss

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Reply #25 - May 20^th, 2005 at 3:30am

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I was in the cockpit of a 737 thanks to a pilot friend of ours... I think we landed at 134 kts. Didnt concentrate on the v/s though...

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Reply #26 - May 21^st, 2005 at 9:05pm

jknight8907 Offline
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Your average airliner doesn't flare more than a few degrees. And touchdowns are intentionally made a bit firm. That's so that all the squat switches contact, and ensures that spoilers and autobrakes will deploy, and that the reversers will unlock. A greased-on landing may not unlock reversers or spoilers, which would be very bad.

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