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KIAS vs. Mach (Read 1876 times)
Mar 30th, 2005 at 10:00pm

Hawkeye313   Offline
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KIAS vs. Mach.  Is there a reason to use one over the other?  I've recently started trying to fly "heavies" and I remember reading something earlier.  It seems that you start off using KIAS and then move to mach, but I don't remember why.  Would someone be nice enough to explain it to me?   ???
 

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Reply #1 - Mar 30th, 2005 at 10:46pm

Mobius   Offline
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I would assume it because as you increase altitude, Mach 1 changes and there are FAA rules about exceding Mach 1, not to mention the fact that your engines would stop working at Mach 1.  Your KIAS would decrease becuase there are fewer particles of air for the pitot tube to measure so ram airpressure decreases and it would be difficult to convert from KIAS to Mach while flying, so it is just read as Mach.

I don't know though, this is just speculation on my part, so anyone who actually does know, please correct me or tell me I'm stupid and wrong.  Thanks Grin Wink
 

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Reply #2 - Apr 1st, 2005 at 4:41am

Eskimo   Offline
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Actually, KAIS is the same no matter what height youare, the true AIS is what changes.

That said, airliners use mach because it's a standard speed at higher altitudes.
 

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Reply #3 - Apr 1st, 2005 at 6:19am

Nexus   Offline
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Quote:
Actually, KAIS is the same no matter what height youare, the true AIS is what changes.


I'd say that is a faulty argument.  ???
It's no secret that KIAS descreases with altitude
"Climb speed: IAS 80kt minus 1kt/2000ft" it says on the Vy diagram (Vy = Best rate of climb speed) for my aircraft.

And airliners use mach number at high altitudes simply because it becomes the aircrafts limiting speed
 
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Reply #4 - Apr 2nd, 2005 at 1:26pm

beefhole   Offline
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Nexus preaches the truth, as usual Smiley

KIAS is altitude, temperature, wind dependent.
 
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Reply #5 - Apr 3rd, 2005 at 1:51pm

Saratoga   Offline
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Pilots climb using KIAS (250 to 10,000, 280 after) then transition to Mach around 30,000 or so. Usually it's just the fact that around 30,000, 280 knots is easing up into the high seventies of the Mach, so to avoid going past your crusing, speed, you flip over to Mach hold.
 

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Reply #6 - Apr 3rd, 2005 at 9:58pm

Eskimo   Offline
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Quote:
I'd say that is a faulty argument.  ???
It's no secret that KIAS descreases with altitude
"Climb speed: IAS 80kt minus 1kt/2000ft" it says on the Vy diagram (Vy = Best rate of climb speed) for my aircraft.

Yeah, that's my bad.  I read in my PPL theory book not two hours after posting that that IAS decreases with altitude and true AIS stays the same.
 

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Reply #7 - Apr 4th, 2005 at 4:41pm

beefhole   Offline
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I thought climb speed was aircraft dependent (280 for 737, something like 300 for 777, etc.)

note: directed at saratogas comment.
 
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Reply #8 - Apr 4th, 2005 at 5:28pm

Nexus   Offline
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Quote:
I thought climb speed was aircraft dependent (280 for 737, something like 300 for 777, etc.)

note: directed at saratogas comment.


The climb speed is rather Cost Index dependent  Smiley

If you put down a CI of zero in the 737, you will get a modest climb speed of around 240kts/.750 (depending on model)
But if you boost the CI to 500 you will climb at 330kts/.798...alot faster, but will obviously burn more fuel.

Same logic works in every commercial airliner.
 
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Reply #9 - Apr 4th, 2005 at 6:47pm

Saratoga   Offline
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Nexus, dunno your reference, our climb speeds don't change unless of course ATC requests they change.

Sorry beef, I stand corrected. Everything I have flown (except the turbos obviously) has had a standard suggested climb speed of 280 knots or as required due to the height and Mach number. I can't speak of the 777 because I ain't a triple 7 pilot. I can imagine them doing it until about 25,000, but for any flight where a triple-7 is required, a few minutes quicker in climb isn't a big difference. Personally, I would enjoy the longer climb, but that's just me. Time is money. Wink
 

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Reply #10 - Apr 4th, 2005 at 7:13pm

Nexus   Offline
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That answer is rather odd to me, Saratoga, seeing you are a captain of several commercial airliners.

The Cost Index -simply put - regulates how much fuel you want to spend during the flight. This will also have impact on the different profiles of each phase of the flight

Example: CI of 0 will give you a very steep climb (near max. rate), and shallow descent profile, at slow speeds

CI of 500 will have a shallow climb and a very steep descent, speeds are maximal in all flight phases.

So are you saying you never pay attention to cost index when programming the FMC? What kind of airline uses that philosophy?  ???

Edit: These speeds are the speed which will be flown in VNAV mode  Smiley
 
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Reply #11 - Apr 4th, 2005 at 8:35pm

beefhole   Offline
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767 is close enough, far as I'm concerned Smiley

I'm pretty sure the more (or the more powerful) engines it has the faster the climb speed.  eg. the MD-11 and 747 will most likely climb faster than 280 knots.
 
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Reply #12 - Apr 12th, 2005 at 6:50pm

Issflareman   Offline
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I stick to KIAS with the heavies, but i use mach for all my fighter jets.
 

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Reply #13 - Apr 13th, 2005 at 2:31am

SilverFox441   Offline
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Drag increases exponentially as you near limiting Mach numbers...very good reason for commercial planes to stay away from that limit. Smiley

Of course..if we built an airliner that was a wave-rider like the B-70 we would have airlines complaining about being forced below critical Mach. Cheesy
 

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Reply #14 - Jul 11th, 2005 at 10:50pm

t_alexander21   Offline
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Nexus really hit the nail on this one in terms of the importance of the cost index. The CI determines climb and descent based on the respective airline's budget limitations. I know British Airways uses a CI of 27 in their A319's, 20's, and 21's to keep from "wasting" fuel. Also I believe Air Canada uses a CI of around 30 but I'm not 100% positive on that...

Quote:
our climb speeds don't change unless of course ATC requests they change.


Saratoga, I mean once you are above 10,000 you can pretty much fly at any speed you want below 1 mach unless ATC is having seperation issues...but maybe I misunderstood your statement.
 
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Reply #15 - Sep 1st, 2005 at 3:40pm

James Turbett   Offline
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Mach 1 is slower at higher altitudes (At FL350, 290knts is about 0.82M and at around FL270, 290knts is somthing like 0.72M).
The figures may not be accurate but while knots is a constant speed no matter what hight you are, the speed of sound is slower the higher up you go.

(somthing to do with air density alowing vibrations to travel through the molecules quicker).
 

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Reply #16 - Sep 1st, 2005 at 3:42pm

James Turbett   Offline
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Quote:
Mach 1 is slower at higher altitudes (At FL350, 290knts is about 0.82M and at around FL270, 290knts is somthing like 0.72M).
The figures may not be accurate but while knots is a constant speed no matter what hight you are, the speed of sound is slower the higher up you go.

(somthing to do with air density alowing vibrations to travel through the molecules quicker).


the denser the material the quicker the sound travels. However the density of the air doesn't affect the speed of sound as much as you describe.

Airspeed (and altitude) is determined by the pitot static system, it measures the air passing by the aircraft (I think, someone else will be able to describe it bettter)

Because the air is less dense, then as your ground speed stays the same (the speed you are relative to the ground), however your Indicated airspeed(IAS) changes - goes down as you go higher (this is what happens when you select mach speed as your autopilot mode and you change altitude.) (mach speed is about the same as ground speed)

conversely when you select IAS mode, and your IAS stays the same (say 270kts) then when you change altitude your ground speed changes, it gets slower as you go down.

Someone else will probably be able to give a much better explanation than I can.
 

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Reply #17 - Sep 1st, 2005 at 3:43pm

James Turbett   Offline
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IAS is done via what the aircraft 'feels' its speed at. So its accurate at sea level but as you climb, the air becomes less dense and so the aircraft 'feels' like it is going slower. For example Concorde at Mach 2 and 60,000ft is only doing around 435 IAS, but 1,150kts true airspeed.
 

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Reply #18 - Sep 1st, 2005 at 3:44pm

James Turbett   Offline
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IAS is what manufacturers use as the basis for determining aircraft performance. IAS does not normally vary with alt or temp as they affect the aerodynamics of the airframe and ASI equally.

You need to know the types of airspeeds to get the idea of Mach. Most pilots use an acronym of ICETG. Indicated, Calibrated, Equivalent, True, Ground. Indicated is what you read on the ASI. Calibrated is Indicated corrected for installation errors...the pitot tube not pointing into the wind at high AOA. Equivalent is Calibrated corrected for adiabetic flow...compression...at airspeeds above 200 KIAS. True is the actual airspeed you fly through undisturbed air. Ground is ground speed...duh.

Mach is the ratio of the A/C TRUE airspeed to the speed of sound. Ex: .85 is 85% of the speed of sound at that temperature. If you want to compute the True airspeed from a conventional ASI, you have to think about air density which is affected by temp and altitude. With a mach indicator, the temperature determines the speed of sound, and provides a more useful index for aircraft.

Don't think about the speed of sound as being the speed that sound travels through a material of a certain density...it's more about what the temp is and what the speed of the A/C is. As you go higher, the air is cooler, therefore, the IAS is slower compared to GS.

Hope that makes it clear as mud.
 

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Reply #19 - Sep 1st, 2005 at 3:45pm

James Turbett   Offline
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All aircraft have limiting airspeeds. With faster aircraft, the limiting mach # comes into play. At higher speeds the mach readout is more important than IAS, because IAS has no *direct* relationship(you can say the speed of sound is 700 knots, but you at the same time have to specify the altitude) with the speed of sound. Yes, sound travels slower in less dense air(less molecules for which the wave to move through of course), but the aircraft is flying in that less dense air too. The mach indication is therefore accurate, unlike the IAS which is based on a dynamic and static air pressure, and can be said to be inaccurate so long as the instrument is calibrated for sea level pressure, which it is. If you took off and climbed to say, FL300, at 250 kias, your ground speed would have been accellerating the whole time, instead of the constant airspeed you thought you were flying. Mach should have climbed the whole time.
 

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