Search the archive:
Simviation Main Site
|
Site Search
|
Upload Images
Simviation Forum
›
Current Flight Simulator Series
›
Flight School
› KIAS vs. Mach
(Moderators: Mitch., Fly2e, ozzy72, beaky, Clipper, JBaymore, Bob70, BigTruck)
‹
Previous Topic
|
Next Topic
›
Pages:
1
KIAS vs. Mach (Read 1876 times)
Mar 30
th
, 2005 at 10:00pm
Hawkeye313
Offline
Colonel
Georgia
Gender:
Posts: 103
KIAS vs. Mach. Is there a reason to use one over the other? I've recently started trying to fly "heavies" and I remember reading something earlier. It seems that you start off using KIAS and then move to mach, but I don't remember why. Would someone be nice enough to explain it to me? ???
Antec Dragon, Asus P4C800 Deluxe, P4 3.2E,Swiftech Water Cooling, 1Gig Mushkin Lv 2 V. 2 PC3200 + 512mb Corsair TwinX LL PC3200, 2 WD Raptors on RAID 0, 1 Maxtor 120GB 7200rpm, Audigy 2, eVGA 6800 GT, Logitech Z-680 speakers, Tracker IR3 Pro, 19
Back to top
IP Logged
Reply #1 -
Mar 30
th
, 2005 at 10:46pm
Mobius
Offline
Colonel
Highest Point in the Lightning
Storm
Wisconsin
Posts: 4369
I would assume it because as you increase altitude, Mach 1 changes and there are FAA rules about exceding Mach 1, not to mention the fact that your engines would stop working at Mach 1. Your KIAS would decrease becuase there are fewer particles of air for the pitot tube to measure so ram airpressure decreases and it would be difficult to convert from KIAS to Mach while flying, so it is just read as Mach.
I don't know though, this is just speculation on my part, so anyone who actually does know, please correct me or tell me I'm stupid and wrong. Thanks
Back to top
IP Logged
Reply #2 -
Apr 1
st
, 2005 at 4:41am
Eskimo
Offline
Colonel
I'm not speeding officer
-- I'm just flying low.
YBAF - Archerfield, Brisbane
Gender:
Posts: 287
Actually, KAIS is the same no matter what height youare, the true AIS is what changes.
That said, airliners use mach because it's a standard speed at higher altitudes.
Aviation Downunder
- Now Open
Back to top
IP Logged
Reply #3 -
Apr 1
st
, 2005 at 6:19am
Nexus
Offline
Colonel
The greater of two evils...
Gender:
Posts: 3282
Quote:
Actually, KAIS is the same no matter what height youare, the true AIS is what changes.
I'd say that is a faulty argument. ???
It's no secret that KIAS descreases with altitude
"Climb speed: IAS 80kt minus 1kt/2000ft" it says on the Vy diagram (Vy = Best rate of climb speed) for my aircraft.
And airliners use mach number at high altitudes simply because it becomes the aircrafts limiting speed
Back to top
IP Logged
Reply #4 -
Apr 2
nd
, 2005 at 1:26pm
beefhole
Offline
Colonel
common' yigs!
Philadelphia
Gender:
Posts: 4466
Nexus preaches the truth, as usual
KIAS is altitude, temperature, wind dependent.
Back to top
IP Logged
Reply #5 -
Apr 3
rd
, 2005 at 1:51pm
Saratoga
Offline
Colonel
757/767 Captain Major,
USAF
Dallas-Ft. Worth Intl. (KDFW)
Gender:
Posts: 571
Pilots climb using KIAS (250 to 10,000, 280 after) then transition to Mach around 30,000 or so. Usually it's just the fact that around 30,000, 280 knots is easing up into the high seventies of the Mach, so to avoid going past your crusing, speed, you flip over to Mach hold.
Pilot for a major US airline certified in the: EMB-120, CRJ, 727, 737, 757, 767, and A-320 and military, T-38, C-130, C-141, and C-5 along with misc. other small airplanes. Any questions, I'm here for you.
Back to top
IP Logged
Reply #6 -
Apr 3
rd
, 2005 at 9:58pm
Eskimo
Offline
Colonel
I'm not speeding officer
-- I'm just flying low.
YBAF - Archerfield, Brisbane
Gender:
Posts: 287
Quote:
I'd say that is a faulty argument. ???
It's no secret that KIAS descreases with altitude
"Climb speed: IAS 80kt minus 1kt/2000ft" it says on the Vy diagram (Vy = Best rate of climb speed) for my aircraft.
Yeah, that's my bad. I read in my PPL theory book not two hours after posting that that IAS decreases with altitude and true AIS stays the same.
Aviation Downunder
- Now Open
Back to top
IP Logged
Reply #7 -
Apr 4
th
, 2005 at 4:41pm
beefhole
Offline
Colonel
common' yigs!
Philadelphia
Gender:
Posts: 4466
I thought climb speed was aircraft dependent (280 for 737, something like 300 for 777, etc.)
note: directed at saratogas comment.
Back to top
IP Logged
Reply #8 -
Apr 4
th
, 2005 at 5:28pm
Nexus
Offline
Colonel
The greater of two evils...
Gender:
Posts: 3282
Quote:
I thought climb speed was aircraft dependent (280 for 737, something like 300 for 777, etc.)
note: directed at saratogas comment.
The climb speed is rather Cost Index dependent
If you put down a CI of zero in the 737, you will get a modest climb speed of around 240kts/.750 (depending on model)
But if you boost the CI to 500 you will climb at 330kts/.798...alot faster, but will obviously burn more fuel.
Same logic works in every commercial airliner.
Back to top
IP Logged
Reply #9 -
Apr 4
th
, 2005 at 6:47pm
Saratoga
Offline
Colonel
757/767 Captain Major,
USAF
Dallas-Ft. Worth Intl. (KDFW)
Gender:
Posts: 571
Nexus, dunno your reference, our climb speeds don't change unless of course ATC requests they change.
Sorry beef, I stand corrected. Everything I have flown (except the turbos obviously) has had a standard suggested climb speed of 280 knots or as required due to the height and Mach number. I can't speak of the 777 because I ain't a triple 7 pilot. I can imagine them doing it until about 25,000, but for any flight where a triple-7 is required, a few minutes quicker in climb isn't a big difference. Personally, I would enjoy the longer climb, but that's just me. Time is money.
Pilot for a major US airline certified in the: EMB-120, CRJ, 727, 737, 757, 767, and A-320 and military, T-38, C-130, C-141, and C-5 along with misc. other small airplanes. Any questions, I'm here for you.
Back to top
IP Logged
Reply #10 -
Apr 4
th
, 2005 at 7:13pm
Nexus
Offline
Colonel
The greater of two evils...
Gender:
Posts: 3282
That answer is rather odd to me, Saratoga, seeing you are a captain of several commercial airliners.
The Cost Index -simply put - regulates how much fuel you want to spend during the flight. This will also have impact on the different profiles of each phase of the flight
Example: CI of 0 will give you a very steep climb (near max. rate), and shallow descent profile, at slow speeds
CI of 500 will have a shallow climb and a very steep descent, speeds are maximal in all flight phases.
So are you saying you never pay attention to cost index when programming the FMC? What kind of airline uses that philosophy? ???
Edit: These speeds are the speed which will be flown in VNAV mode
Back to top
IP Logged
Reply #11 -
Apr 4
th
, 2005 at 8:35pm
beefhole
Offline
Colonel
common' yigs!
Philadelphia
Gender:
Posts: 4466
767 is close enough, far as I'm concerned
I'm pretty sure the more (or the more powerful) engines it has the faster the climb speed. eg. the MD-11 and 747 will most likely climb faster than 280 knots.
Back to top
IP Logged
Reply #12 -
Apr 12
th
, 2005 at 6:50pm
Issflareman
Offline
Colonel
Trumbull, CT
Gender:
Posts: 302
I stick to KIAS with the heavies, but i use mach for all my fighter jets.
FSX Deluxe/FS 2004 User
&&
*Dell Dimension 8250*--2.40GHz Pentium 4--GeForce4 MX 420--1 gig RAM--&&--Thrustmaster Top Gun Afterburner II--Logitech Wingman Force 3D--
Back to top
IP Logged
Reply #13 -
Apr 13
th
, 2005 at 2:31am
SilverFox441
Offline
Colonel
Now What?
Mississauga, Ontario, Canada
Gender:
Posts: 1467
Drag increases exponentially as you near limiting Mach numbers...very good reason for commercial planes to stay away from that limit.
Of course..if we built an airliner that was a wave-rider like the B-70 we would have airlines complaining about being forced
below
critical Mach.
Steve
(Silver Fox)
Daly
&&
Back to top
IP Logged
Reply #14 -
Jul 11
th
, 2005 at 10:50pm
t_alexander21
Offline
Colonel
I'd rather be flying a
bus
Chicago
Gender:
Posts: 104
Nexus really hit the nail on this one in terms of the importance of the cost index. The CI determines climb and descent based on the respective airline's budget limitations. I know British Airways uses a CI of 27 in their A319's, 20's, and 21's to keep from "wasting" fuel. Also I believe Air Canada uses a CI of around 30 but I'm not 100% positive on that...
Quote:
our climb speeds don't change unless of course ATC requests they change.
Saratoga, I mean once you are above 10,000 you can pretty much fly at any speed you want below 1 mach unless ATC is having seperation issues...but maybe I misunderstood your statement.
http://photos.airliners.net/small/3/3/7/855733.jpg&&Virtual
Air Canada&&Senior Captain&&VAC2223&&
www.vacanada.org
Back to top
IP Logged
Reply #15 -
Sep 1
st
, 2005 at 3:40pm
James Turbett
Offline
Colonel
Prospective Pilot for
the Future
Uckfield, England
Gender:
Posts: 10
Mach 1 is slower at higher altitudes (At FL350, 290knts is about 0.82M and at around FL270, 290knts is somthing like 0.72M).
The figures may not be accurate but while knots is a constant speed no matter what hight you are, the speed of sound is slower the higher up you go.
(somthing to do with air density alowing vibrations to travel through the molecules quicker).
James Turbett&&jimmyturbo@hotmail.co.uk
Back to top
IP Logged
Reply #16 -
Sep 1
st
, 2005 at 3:42pm
James Turbett
Offline
Colonel
Prospective Pilot for
the Future
Uckfield, England
Gender:
Posts: 10
Quote:
Mach 1 is slower at higher altitudes (At FL350, 290knts is about 0.82M and at around FL270, 290knts is somthing like 0.72M).
The figures may not be accurate but while knots is a constant speed no matter what hight you are, the speed of sound is slower the higher up you go.
(somthing to do with air density alowing vibrations to travel through the molecules quicker).
the denser the material the quicker the sound travels. However the density of the air doesn't affect the speed of sound as much as you describe.
Airspeed (and altitude) is determined by the pitot static system, it measures the air passing by the aircraft (I think, someone else will be able to describe it bettter)
Because the air is less dense, then as your ground speed stays the same (the speed you are relative to the ground), however your Indicated airspeed(IAS) changes - goes down as you go higher (this is what happens when you select mach speed as your autopilot mode and you change altitude.) (mach speed is about the same as ground speed)
conversely when you select IAS mode, and your IAS stays the same (say 270kts) then when you change altitude your ground speed changes, it gets slower as you go down.
Someone else will probably be able to give a much better explanation than I can.
James Turbett&&jimmyturbo@hotmail.co.uk
Back to top
IP Logged
Reply #17 -
Sep 1
st
, 2005 at 3:43pm
James Turbett
Offline
Colonel
Prospective Pilot for
the Future
Uckfield, England
Gender:
Posts: 10
IAS is done via what the aircraft 'feels' its speed at. So its accurate at sea level but as you climb, the air becomes less dense and so the aircraft 'feels' like it is going slower. For example Concorde at Mach 2 and 60,000ft is only doing around 435 IAS, but 1,150kts true airspeed.
James Turbett&&jimmyturbo@hotmail.co.uk
Back to top
IP Logged
Reply #18 -
Sep 1
st
, 2005 at 3:44pm
James Turbett
Offline
Colonel
Prospective Pilot for
the Future
Uckfield, England
Gender:
Posts: 10
IAS is what manufacturers use as the basis for determining aircraft performance. IAS does not normally vary with alt or temp as they affect the aerodynamics of the airframe and ASI equally.
You need to know the types of airspeeds to get the idea of Mach. Most pilots use an acronym of ICETG. Indicated, Calibrated, Equivalent, True, Ground. Indicated is what you read on the ASI. Calibrated is Indicated corrected for installation errors...the pitot tube not pointing into the wind at high AOA. Equivalent is Calibrated corrected for adiabetic flow...compression...at airspeeds above 200 KIAS. True is the actual airspeed you fly through undisturbed air. Ground is ground speed...duh.
Mach is the ratio of the A/C TRUE airspeed to the speed of sound. Ex: .85 is 85% of the speed of sound at that temperature. If you want to compute the True airspeed from a conventional ASI, you have to think about air density which is affected by temp and altitude. With a mach indicator, the temperature determines the speed of sound, and provides a more useful index for aircraft.
Don't think about the speed of sound as being the speed that sound travels through a material of a certain density...it's more about what the temp is and what the speed of the A/C is. As you go higher, the air is cooler, therefore, the IAS is slower compared to GS.
Hope that makes it clear as mud.
James Turbett&&jimmyturbo@hotmail.co.uk
Back to top
IP Logged
Reply #19 -
Sep 1
st
, 2005 at 3:45pm
James Turbett
Offline
Colonel
Prospective Pilot for
the Future
Uckfield, England
Gender:
Posts: 10
All aircraft have limiting airspeeds. With faster aircraft, the limiting mach # comes into play. At higher speeds the mach readout is more important than IAS, because IAS has no *direct* relationship(you can say the speed of sound is 700 knots, but you at the same time have to specify the altitude) with the speed of sound. Yes, sound travels slower in less dense air(less molecules for which the wave to move through of course), but the aircraft is flying in that less dense air too. The mach indication is therefore accurate, unlike the IAS which is based on a dynamic and static air pressure, and can be said to be inaccurate so long as the instrument is calibrated for sea level pressure, which it is. If you took off and climbed to say, FL300, at 250 kias, your ground speed would have been accellerating the whole time, instead of the constant airspeed you thought you were flying. Mach should have climbed the whole time.
James Turbett&&jimmyturbo@hotmail.co.uk
Back to top
IP Logged
Pages:
1
‹
Previous Topic
|
Next Topic
›
« Home
‹ Board
Top of this page
Forum Jump »
Home
» 10 most recent Posts
» 10 most recent Topics
Current Flight Simulator Series
- Flight Simulator X
- FS 2004 - A Century of Flight
- Adding Aircraft Traffic (AI) & Gates
- Flight School ««
- Flightgear
- MS Flight
Graphic Gallery
- Simviation Screenshots Showcase
- Screenshot Contest
- Edited Screenshots
- Photos & Cameras
- Payware Screenshot Showcase
- Studio V Screenshot Workshop
- Video
- The Cage
Design Forums
- Aircraft & 3D Design
- Scenery & Panel Design
- Aircraft Repainting
- Designer Feedback
General
- General Discussion
- Humour
- Music, Arts & Entertainment
- Sport
Computer Hardware & Software Forum
- Hardware
- Tweaking & Overclocking
- Computer Games & Software
- HomeBuild Cockpits
Addons Most Wanted
- Aircraft Wanted
- Other Add-ons Wanted
Real World
- Real Aviation
- Specific Aircraft Types
- Autos
- History
On-line Interactive Flying
- Virtual Airlines Events & Messages
- Multiplayer
Simviation Site
- Simviation News & Info
- Suggestions for these forums
- Site Questions & Feedback
- Site Problems & Broken Links
Combat Flight Simulators
- Combat Flight Simulator 3
- Combat Flight Simulator 2
- Combat Flight Simulator
- CFS Development
- IL-2 Sturmovik
Other Websites
- Your Site
- Other Sites
Payware
- Payware
Old Flight Simulator Series
- FS 2002
- FS 2000
- Flight Simulator 98
Simviation Forum
» Powered by
YaBB 2.5 AE
!
YaBB Forum Software
© 2000-2010. All Rights Reserved.