Search the archive:
YaBB - Yet another Bulletin Board
 
   
 
Pages: 1 
Send Topic Print
N1, N2 and engine start. (Read 283 times)
Mar 20th, 2005 at 2:17pm

Vic   Offline
Colonel
Russia - 1060 Years and
Still Strong!
Moscow, Russian Federation

Gender: male
Posts: 234
*****
 
I have two quick questions about turbofan engines.
As I understand it, the N1 is the fan, the N2 is the compressor (am I correct?)

What is the start up sequence for turbofan engines? (No autostart cheating Wink ) The way I understand it, you have to spin either the N1 or the N2 to a certain % after which you turn the fuel on and after that you ignite it...am I correct?

Vic
 

When you ASSUME, you make an ASS out of U and ME.
IP Logged
 
Reply #1 - Mar 20th, 2005 at 7:04pm

beefhole   Offline
Colonel
common' yigs!
Philadelphia

Gender: male
Posts: 4466
*****
 
I'll answer the second.  Normally you start it 2,1 (right, left) in a two-engine aircraft.  Hit E+2, and crack the throttle.  Hold ctrl+shift, and keep you finger hovering over the F4 button.  When ready, use your other hand to press and HOLD the Right engine starter switch on START.  Watch N1 and N2.  Make sure that N1 is increasing as N2 is increasing.  In general, you want to hit F4 (which will open the fuel valve) when N2 is at 21%.  Repeat for engine 1.  Hope that wasn't confusing.
 
IP Logged
 
Reply #2 - Mar 20th, 2005 at 7:35pm

Nexus   Offline
Colonel
The greater of two evils...

Gender: male
Posts: 3282
*****
 
The N1 (fan)is the Low pressure compressor.
The fan is normally mounted on the front of a number of core compression stages (twin spool engine) or on a separate shaft, diven by its own turbine (triple spool)

The N2 is the High pressure compressor and this is the one you must start first (often by pneumtatic power)
When the N2 is at around 25%, then you have adequate airflow thru the engine so you can add the fuel. Not all aircrafts can start both engines at the same time (the APU delivers the pneumatic) and some aircraft's must have the air conditioning turned off, because of the same reason  Smiley
 
IP Logged
 
Reply #3 - Mar 20th, 2005 at 8:10pm

beefhole   Offline
Colonel
common' yigs!
Philadelphia

Gender: male
Posts: 4466
*****
 
Quote:
When the N2 is at around 25%, then you have adequate airflow thru the engine so you can add the fuel.

In FS, N2 doesn't reach 25% before spooling down. You'll need to charge it at 21%. Wink
 
IP Logged
 
Reply #4 - Mar 20th, 2005 at 8:35pm

Nexus   Offline
Colonel
The greater of two evils...

Gender: male
Posts: 3282
*****
 
Quote:
In FS, N2 doesn't reach 25% before spooling down. You'll need to charge it at 21%. Wink


Must be an FS program issue, since neither the PMDG 737 nor Level D 767 spools up the N2 according to their realistic counter parts.
 
IP Logged
 
Reply #5 - Mar 20th, 2005 at 10:41pm

Saratoga   Offline
Colonel
757/767 Captain   Major,
USAF
Dallas-Ft. Worth Intl. (KDFW)

Gender: male
Posts: 571
*****
 
Ya in reality, just hold the start switch, watch the N2 begin to rise, then the N1, wait 'til 20-25 or so (in modern turbofans, you have a wide range that will work), flip the fuel on, and she'll spool right up. Wink
 

Pilot for a major US airline certified in the: EMB-120, CRJ, 727, 737, 757, 767, and A-320 and military, T-38, C-130, C-141, and C-5 along with misc. other small airplanes. Any questions, I'm here for you.
IP Logged
 
Reply #6 - Mar 20th, 2005 at 10:45pm

Nexus   Offline
Colonel
The greater of two evils...

Gender: male
Posts: 3282
*****
 
How'd you get those N2; N1 to look like that?
Been trying to do that for ages  Smiley
 
IP Logged
 
Reply #7 - Mar 21st, 2005 at 3:47am

ChrisM   Offline
Colonel
Home Airport: YTHG, Thangool
Biloela, Australia

Gender: male
Posts: 257
*****
 
You use the subscript and supscript buttons.  4 from the right bottom row on the 'add yabbc tags'
 

...&&Computer Specs: P4 2.8GHz, 512MB RAM, NVIDIA 6600GT 128MB Graphics Card
IP Logged
 
Reply #8 - Mar 21st, 2005 at 7:45am

Nexus   Offline
Colonel
The greater of two evils...

Gender: male
Posts: 3282
*****
 
Thanks you Chris!  Smiley
 
IP Logged
 
Reply #9 - Mar 21st, 2005 at 8:55am

Vic   Offline
Colonel
Russia - 1060 Years and
Still Strong!
Moscow, Russian Federation

Gender: male
Posts: 234
*****
 
Thanks for that info guys!

beefhole: the 3 spool engine you are refering to is some Rolls Royce, right? (Someone told me that a rolls royce has N1, N2 and N3!)
Vic
 

When you ASSUME, you make an ASS out of U and ME.
IP Logged
 
Reply #10 - Mar 21st, 2005 at 10:04am

beefhole   Offline
Colonel
common' yigs!
Philadelphia

Gender: male
Posts: 4466
*****
 
Quote:
beefhole: the 3 spool engine you are refering to is some Rolls Royce, right? (Someone told me that a rolls royce has N1, N2 and N3!)
Vic

??? I just reread my stuff, I didn't mention any N3, but I've also heard of this on some engines.
 
IP Logged
 
Reply #11 - Mar 21st, 2005 at 5:52pm

Nexus   Offline
Colonel
The greater of two evils...

Gender: male
Posts: 3282
*****
 
Correct Vic.

The tripple spool engine is has an N3 stage, and that stage is the High pressure compressor, whereas the N2 is the intermediate stage compressor. All spools ar each driven by their own turbine and connection shafts.

Advantage compared to twin-spool engines are that the N1 fan can have a wider chord because it is not restricted to any connection to booster conpressors-
This allows for a very large frontal area and the N1 can be driven closer to its optimal speed

The actual fan - which works more like a shrouded prop - is responsible for approx 75% of the engine's thrust in the form of bypass airflow to the atmosphere via the engines bypass ducts behind the fan.

The air that flows thru the N2 and N3 compressors becomes highly compressed , of which 1/3 is used for combustion and 2/3 for internal engine cooling.

And yes I have a poster of the RB211 on my wall  Grin

 
IP Logged
 
Reply #12 - Mar 21st, 2005 at 7:44pm

Saratoga   Offline
Colonel
757/767 Captain   Major,
USAF
Dallas-Ft. Worth Intl. (KDFW)

Gender: male
Posts: 571
*****
 
Can't think of any aircraft which has an N3 gauge. I believe though if the N1 and N2 were within operating limits, the N3 would be forced into that same position, correct?
 

Pilot for a major US airline certified in the: EMB-120, CRJ, 727, 737, 757, 767, and A-320 and military, T-38, C-130, C-141, and C-5 along with misc. other small airplanes. Any questions, I'm here for you.
IP Logged
 
Reply #13 - Mar 21st, 2005 at 9:02pm

Nexus   Offline
Colonel
The greater of two evils...

Gender: male
Posts: 3282
*****
 
Look no further than the L1011.  Smiley
I believe the gauges are arranged as EPR, N1, TGT, N3 and FF
 
IP Logged
 
Reply #14 - Mar 22nd, 2005 at 6:18am

Vic   Offline
Colonel
Russia - 1060 Years and
Still Strong!
Moscow, Russian Federation

Gender: male
Posts: 234
*****
 
Thanks Nexus! So the L1011 engines used the triple spool? Well, that would be a great advantage, so whats the disadvantage ??? (cheese is only free in a mousetrap) so I take it that the fuel burn is higher and a two spool? Thats just my guess to why newer engines are usually two-spool, right?
Vic
 

When you ASSUME, you make an ASS out of U and ME.
IP Logged
 
Reply #15 - Mar 22nd, 2005 at 6:51pm

Saratoga   Offline
Colonel
757/767 Captain   Major,
USAF
Dallas-Ft. Worth Intl. (KDFW)

Gender: male
Posts: 571
*****
 
Any RR engine has the full three-spools layout. Fuel burn isn't an issue from what I have seen, though some pilots claim the RRs put out less power and it takes more time for them to spool up (not an incredibly noticeable amount to anyone but a pilot).
 

Pilot for a major US airline certified in the: EMB-120, CRJ, 727, 737, 757, 767, and A-320 and military, T-38, C-130, C-141, and C-5 along with misc. other small airplanes. Any questions, I'm here for you.
IP Logged
 
Reply #16 - Mar 22nd, 2005 at 9:52pm

Nexus   Offline
Colonel
The greater of two evils...

Gender: male
Posts: 3282
*****
 
This may not be a rule of thumb, but my instructor (the A330 driver) says the RR is the best engine, at least for the Airbus. They can climb directly to cruise altitude at MTOW with the RR Trents (?), something they rarely manage with PW and GE engines - according to him.
 
IP Logged
 
Reply #17 - Mar 22nd, 2005 at 11:43pm

Rocket_Bird   Offline
Colonel
Canada

Gender: male
Posts: 1214
*****
 
Not to say your all wrong... ive never worked on a turbofan engine myself... I have taken apart Allison 250 engines and Pratt Whitney PT6 engines, but from what ive come across, N1 has always been noted as the compressor (no matter how many stages, or whether it has a combination of centrifugal and axial compressors), and N2 is your power turbine or free turbine, doesnt matter how many spools you have...  Or in pratt whitney, they are NG and NF respectively.  I dont think they actually use the fan for a measurement, i could be wrong... but the point of where your air gets compressed is really a function of your compressors...  How much you get out of it is a function of your turbine. 

And yes, the Trents have been a favored engine in efficiency... well most asian airlines prefer the Trent.
 

Cheers,
RB

...
IP Logged
 
Reply #18 - Mar 27th, 2005 at 5:06pm

Saratoga   Offline
Colonel
757/767 Captain   Major,
USAF
Dallas-Ft. Worth Intl. (KDFW)

Gender: male
Posts: 571
*****
 
I have a preference for P&W personally. No matter what we call them, N1 and N2 are always what it is refered to in the cockpit.
 

Pilot for a major US airline certified in the: EMB-120, CRJ, 727, 737, 757, 767, and A-320 and military, T-38, C-130, C-141, and C-5 along with misc. other small airplanes. Any questions, I'm here for you.
IP Logged
 
Pages: 1 
Send Topic Print