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N1, N2 and engine start. (Read 283 times)
Mar 20
th
, 2005 at 2:17pm
Vic
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Colonel
Russia - 1060 Years and
Still Strong!
Moscow, Russian Federation
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Posts: 234
I have two quick questions about turbofan engines.
As I understand it, the N1 is the fan, the N2 is the compressor (am I correct?)
What is the start up sequence for turbofan engines? (No autostart cheating
) The way I understand it, you have to spin either the N1 or the N2 to a certain % after which you turn the fuel on and after that you ignite it...am I correct?
Vic
When you ASSUME, you make an ASS out of U and ME.
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Reply #1 -
Mar 20
th
, 2005 at 7:04pm
beefhole
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common' yigs!
Philadelphia
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I'll answer the second. Normally you start it 2,1 (right, left) in a two-engine aircraft. Hit E+2, and crack the throttle. Hold ctrl+shift, and keep you finger hovering over the F4 button. When ready, use your other hand to press and HOLD the Right engine starter switch on START. Watch N1 and N2. Make sure that N1 is increasing as N2 is increasing. In general, you want to hit F4 (which will open the fuel valve) when N2 is at 21%. Repeat for engine 1. Hope that wasn't confusing.
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Reply #2 -
Mar 20
th
, 2005 at 7:35pm
Nexus
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The N1 (fan)is the Low pressure compressor.
The fan is normally mounted on the front of a number of core compression stages (twin spool engine) or on a separate shaft, diven by its own turbine (triple spool)
The N2 is the High pressure compressor and this is the one you must start first (often by pneumtatic power)
When the N2 is at around 25%, then you have adequate airflow thru the engine so you can add the fuel. Not all aircrafts can start both engines at the same time (the APU delivers the pneumatic) and some aircraft's must have the air conditioning turned off, because of the same reason
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Reply #3 -
Mar 20
th
, 2005 at 8:10pm
beefhole
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common' yigs!
Philadelphia
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Quote:
When the N2 is at around 25%, then you have adequate airflow thru the engine so you can add the fuel.
In FS, N2 doesn't reach 25% before spooling down. You'll need to charge it at 21%.
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Reply #4 -
Mar 20
th
, 2005 at 8:35pm
Nexus
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Quote:
In FS, N2 doesn't reach 25% before spooling down. You'll need to charge it at 21%.
Must be an FS program issue, since neither the PMDG 737 nor Level D 767 spools up the N2 according to their realistic counter parts.
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Reply #5 -
Mar 20
th
, 2005 at 10:41pm
Saratoga
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757/767 Captain Major,
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Dallas-Ft. Worth Intl. (KDFW)
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Ya in reality, just hold the start switch, watch the N
2
begin to rise, then the N
1
, wait 'til 20-25 or so (in modern turbofans, you have a wide range that will work), flip the fuel on, and she'll spool right up.
Pilot for a major US airline certified in the: EMB-120, CRJ, 727, 737, 757, 767, and A-320 and military, T-38, C-130, C-141, and C-5 along with misc. other small airplanes. Any questions, I'm here for you.
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Reply #6 -
Mar 20
th
, 2005 at 10:45pm
Nexus
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How'd you get those N2; N1 to look like that?
Been trying to do that for ages
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Reply #7 -
Mar 21
st
, 2005 at 3:47am
ChrisM
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You use the subscript and supscript buttons. 4 from the right bottom row on the 'add yabbc tags'
&&Computer Specs: P4 2.8GHz, 512MB RAM, NVIDIA 6600GT 128MB Graphics Card
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Reply #8 -
Mar 21
st
, 2005 at 7:45am
Nexus
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Thanks you Chris!
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Reply #9 -
Mar 21
st
, 2005 at 8:55am
Vic
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Russia - 1060 Years and
Still Strong!
Moscow, Russian Federation
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Thanks for that info guys!
beefhole: the 3 spool engine you are refering to is some Rolls Royce, right? (Someone told me that a rolls royce has N
1
, N
2
and N
3
!)
Vic
When you ASSUME, you make an ASS out of U and ME.
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Reply #10 -
Mar 21
st
, 2005 at 10:04am
beefhole
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common' yigs!
Philadelphia
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Quote:
beefhole: the 3 spool engine you are refering to is some Rolls Royce, right? (Someone told me that a rolls royce has N
1
, N
2
and N
3
!)
Vic
??? I just reread my stuff, I didn't mention any N3, but I've also heard of this on some engines.
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Reply #11 -
Mar 21
st
, 2005 at 5:52pm
Nexus
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Correct Vic.
The tripple spool engine is has an N3 stage, and that stage is the High pressure compressor, whereas the N2 is the intermediate stage compressor. All spools ar each driven by their own turbine and connection shafts.
Advantage compared to twin-spool engines are that the N1 fan can have a wider chord because it is not restricted to any connection to booster conpressors-
This allows for a very large frontal area and the N1 can be driven closer to its optimal speed
The actual fan - which works more like a shrouded prop - is responsible for approx 75% of the engine's thrust in the form of bypass airflow to the atmosphere via the engines bypass ducts behind the fan.
The air that flows thru the N2 and N3 compressors becomes highly compressed , of which 1/3 is used for combustion and 2/3 for internal engine cooling.
And yes I have a poster of the RB211 on my wall
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Reply #12 -
Mar 21
st
, 2005 at 7:44pm
Saratoga
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757/767 Captain Major,
USAF
Dallas-Ft. Worth Intl. (KDFW)
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Can't think of any aircraft which has an N
3
gauge. I believe though if the N
1
and N
2
were within operating limits, the N
3
would be forced into that same position, correct?
Pilot for a major US airline certified in the: EMB-120, CRJ, 727, 737, 757, 767, and A-320 and military, T-38, C-130, C-141, and C-5 along with misc. other small airplanes. Any questions, I'm here for you.
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Reply #13 -
Mar 21
st
, 2005 at 9:02pm
Nexus
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Look no further than the L1011.
I believe the gauges are arranged as EPR, N1, TGT, N3 and FF
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Reply #14 -
Mar 22
nd
, 2005 at 6:18am
Vic
Offline
Colonel
Russia - 1060 Years and
Still Strong!
Moscow, Russian Federation
Gender:
Posts: 234
Thanks Nexus! So the L1011 engines used the triple spool? Well, that would be a great advantage, so whats the disadvantage ??? (cheese is only free in a mousetrap) so I take it that the fuel burn is higher and a two spool? Thats just my guess to why newer engines are usually two-spool, right?
Vic
When you ASSUME, you make an ASS out of U and ME.
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Reply #15 -
Mar 22
nd
, 2005 at 6:51pm
Saratoga
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Colonel
757/767 Captain Major,
USAF
Dallas-Ft. Worth Intl. (KDFW)
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Posts: 571
Any RR engine has the full three-spools layout. Fuel burn isn't an issue from what I have seen, though some pilots claim the RRs put out less power and it takes more time for them to spool up (not an incredibly noticeable amount to anyone but a pilot).
Pilot for a major US airline certified in the: EMB-120, CRJ, 727, 737, 757, 767, and A-320 and military, T-38, C-130, C-141, and C-5 along with misc. other small airplanes. Any questions, I'm here for you.
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Reply #16 -
Mar 22
nd
, 2005 at 9:52pm
Nexus
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The greater of two evils...
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This may not be a rule of thumb, but my instructor (the A330 driver) says the RR is the best engine, at least for the Airbus. They can climb directly to cruise altitude at MTOW with the RR Trents (?), something they rarely manage with PW and GE engines - according to him.
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Reply #17 -
Mar 22
nd
, 2005 at 11:43pm
Rocket_Bird
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Canada
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Posts: 1214
Not to say your all wrong... ive never worked on a turbofan engine myself... I have taken apart Allison 250 engines and Pratt Whitney PT6 engines, but from what ive come across, N1 has always been noted as the compressor (no matter how many stages, or whether it has a combination of centrifugal and axial compressors), and N2 is your power turbine or free turbine, doesnt matter how many spools you have... Or in pratt whitney, they are NG and NF respectively. I dont think they actually use the fan for a measurement, i could be wrong... but the point of where your air gets compressed is really a function of your compressors... How much you get out of it is a function of your turbine.
And yes, the Trents have been a favored engine in efficiency... well most asian airlines prefer the Trent.
Cheers,
RB
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Reply #18 -
Mar 27
th
, 2005 at 5:06pm
Saratoga
Offline
Colonel
757/767 Captain Major,
USAF
Dallas-Ft. Worth Intl. (KDFW)
Gender:
Posts: 571
I have a preference for P&W personally. No matter what we call them, N
1
and N
2
are always what it is refered to in the cockpit.
Pilot for a major US airline certified in the: EMB-120, CRJ, 727, 737, 757, 767, and A-320 and military, T-38, C-130, C-141, and C-5 along with misc. other small airplanes. Any questions, I'm here for you.
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