Sometime ago I asked the question if P-38s ever had encounters with the Ki-45 or Me-110.  The idea of "heavy" fighters going at it in a dogfight intrigued me.  Recently I read of RAAF Beaufighters tangling with the Ki-45.
 
 On October 9th 1943 six RAAF Beaufighters of No 31 Sqn, led by Sqn Ldr Reginald "Butch" Gordon, were on an armed reconnaissance over Selaroe Island.  Over the target Gordon's Beaufighter IC was intercepted by a lone Ki-45 that attacked his aircraft from the port rear and pass throught to his starboard front.  Gordon turned his Beaufighter toward the Japanese fighter and closed on the "Nick".  The Ki-45 pilot maneuvered his aircraft to allow the rear gunner to fire on the closing Beaufighter, hitting his attacker on "the starboard mainplane and shooting the starboard engine exhaust ring off."  At a range of 25 yards Gordon opened fire.  The Ki-45 began to disintegrate and crashed into the sea.

 Gordon continued the mission, but as he left the island his aircraft was attacked by another "Nick".  Once again the attacking Ki-45 struck from the port rear hitting Gordon's Beaufighter in the port engine and starboard aileron as it passed across.  The Ki-45 then turned and attacked the formation ahead of Gordon's aircraft.  Throwing both of the Beaufighter's engines wide open Gordon went after the attacking "Nick".  At 350 yards Gordon opened fire on the Ki-45 and it "started to burn from the port wing root.  Still burning, it lost height and crashed into the sea."

 Gordon nursed his damaged Beaufighter back to Australia but had to "belly in" when the aircraft suffered an engine failure.  Over 100 cannon shell and bullet holes were counted in the Bueafighter's fuselage and the aircraft was scrapped.

 Then, on December 16th 1943, while on a shipping interdiction flight off the north coast of Timor, Sqn Ldr Gordon attacked a flight of four Ki-45s.  He managed to shoot down one "Nick" and damaged another.

 Between his encounters with the Ki-45s Sqn Ldr Gordon shot down a "Rufe" floatplane on November 21 1943.  He became an ace on January 4 1944 with his fifth and final victory when he downed a G4M "Betty" bomber just south of Cape Male.  Gordon was to become the only RAAF Beaufighter pilot to become an ace in the Pacific theater.

 Sadly Sqn Ldr "Butch" Gordon was killed in a non-combat related flying accident on February 27th 1944.

 Its easy to imagine a lone pilot in a single engined aircraft darting about the sky becoming an ace but hard to invision that an aircraft as ungainly as the Beaufighter of being an "ace maker".      

I suggest trying to fly a Beau, theyre quite spritley and very manouverable.

The Jap planes weren't of a decenet construction anyway, so its easy to imagine cannon ripping into it...

Intruiging post by the way....

A.

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But then it would not have been a "Zero" ...   In that sense, it had a decent punch - two cannon and two guns, but the design philosophy at the time was range and maneouverability vs armor protection (added weight, which meant less range/ less maneouverability)

At the time, the expected enemy was still flying biplanes, and the monoplanes facing the Japanese weren't that good.  By Japanese standards, the sundry Buffaloes, P-36s, (even a few P-26s) weren't a match for the A5M, let alone the A6M (Okay, so the first kill of a Japanese aircraft during the Pearl Harbor attacks was a P-36 shooting down a Zeke ... )

Now, once the design philosophy of the Japanese changed, there were some good designs (Ki-100, etc) that would have seriously challeneged the US airplanes 1v1, but it was a case of too little, too late, and the Japanese lost the numbers game.

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Thanks.  THis thread put me in a philosophical mode.  When deciding which aircraft is "better", I try to see what were the conditions surrounding it's development.

Case in point, the Germans could have had an excellent strategic bomber, but the death of the LW technical director prevented further real development when the "strike hard and fast" crowd took over (UDet & Co.).

No one doubts that the Spitfire was an excellent defensive fighter, but as an offensive fighter escort, it didn't have the range that the Mustang had.  Which one was actually the "better" fighter will be argued for ages to come.

IN a straight dogfight, the Zeke could hold it's own (Sakai survived a 16v1 against Hellcats,even if neither side scored a kill), but ultimately, the heavier armor and numbers, numbers, numbers, overwhelmed the Zekes (not to mention quite a number of good Allied pilots and the dwindling number of well-trained pilots on the Japanese side.

As to the Beaufighter vs Ki-45, the robustness of the Beaufighter is more than a testament that the designers go it right on this one.

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You could be correct but I've never seen that mentioned before. It doesn't seem very practical to me as experienced fighter pilots would be more difficult to replace than the aircraft.

This might have been true for Kamikaze pilots as they wouldn't need one.

PS. You have to face facts that the Zero was fast & highly manoeuvrable mainly due to its light construction. This was helped by the lack of armour protection for the pilot & self-sealing fuel tanks used on the Allied aircraft. Apparently the latter also caused it to catch fire easily when hit. All these things add weight & it would have been far less effective with these items fitted.

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 The amazing thing about this encounter is that when Sakai landed back at his base his crewchief couldn't find a single bullet hole in Sakai's Zero!!!  Quite a testament to Sakai's flying ability with so many gunning after him at one time.

 

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<Grin> But a bad pilot is a bad pilot ... I keep getting shot down in them, and by them! </Grin>

In all seriousness, though, there's no denying that the F6F was a good plane.

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Pilot? or Aircraft?

Without doing any research, I would venture to say that it would have been the Me-110, due to sheer numbers and opportunities...

I suspect it's more down to the situation & type of enemy aircraft. Nightfighters work best in a defensive situation when they're over home territory & directed by a reliable control sytem with experienced operators. Put any Luftwaffe nightfighter in amongst an RAF bomber stream anywhere over Western Europe & he could take his pick until his ammo ran out. Many bombers were shot down without ever seeing the aircraft that attacked them. Some of the more experienced nightfighter pilots would lurk around the circuit of the bomber bases & pick them off just when they thought they'd made it home safely.

I don't think the RAF had the same success rate mainly because the AI radar equipment wasn't available during the London Blitz. Ordinary day fighters like the Hurricane & Spitfire were used as nightfighters & after being directed onto the target the pilots had to rely on their eyesight. When they eventually got the equipment & specialised aircraft the Luftwaffe night attacks were often hit & run raids by individual aircraft & never in the concentrated numbers they had been in 1940/41.

I am wondering about both which aircraft, and the pilot. Forgive me for not being specific.

In the case of the Me110 (or any aircraft with multiple gun stations), who would get credit for a victory if the tail gunner shoots down a plane: the tail gunner, the pilot, or the aircraft? Sorry, I am completely uneducated about this.

John

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I second that. The  gunner mostly had two 7.92mm MGs avaiable.

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  This brings up an interesting question, should a defensive gunner down an attacking aircraft does he get credit for the kill?  Or does it go to the pilot?  (In some cases the pilot would maneuver the aircraft to give the rear gunner a better shot at the attacker.)  I'm sure the kill is marked to the aircraft but who gets the credit and have there been any defensive gunner "aces"?