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pondering (Read 863 times)
Mar 6
th
, 2005 at 7:07pm
TacitBlue
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Heres a few questions I have been pondering:
If airliners are pressurized, then why do my ears pop, and my soda taste funny?
Can you tell how many engines a plane has by its con-trail? 2 trails=2 engines?
Do you need a rating for adjustable pitch props?
Do you need special certification for each GA plane before you can fly it?
I know they are all unrelated, but I didnt want to start a topic for each one. Thanks in advance.
A&P Mechanic, Rankin Aircraft 78Y
Aircraft are naturally beautiful because form follows function. -TB
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Reply #1 -
Mar 6
th
, 2005 at 7:39pm
chomp_rock
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Q: If airliners are pressurized, then why do my ears pop, and my soda taste funny?
A: Because you don't live at 8,000ft ASL (which is the standard for pressurization)
Q: Can you tell how many engines a plane has by its con-trail? 2 trails=2 engines?
A: Generally, but a 747, a340 or any other 4 engine plane will likely only have two contrails as they will be mixed by the wake turbulence.
Q: Do you need a rating for adjustable pitch props?
A: No
Q: Do you need special certification for each GA plane before you can fly it?
A: No
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Reply #2 -
Mar 6
th
, 2005 at 8:37pm
beefhole
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common' yigs!
Philadelphia
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Quote:
Q: Do you need a rating for adjustable pitch props?
A: No
You sure about that? That qualifies as a complex airplane, which means you'd need an endorsement-not necissarily a rating I guess...
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Reply #3 -
Mar 6
th
, 2005 at 8:39pm
Rocket_Bird
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Isnt the cessna 182 an adjustable pitch prop?, its not that complex of an aircraft
What do I know... not too much...
Cheers,
RB
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Reply #4 -
Mar 6
th
, 2005 at 8:54pm
TacitBlue
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Thanks for the quick responses, guys. I guess I need to find something else to wonder about now.
A&P Mechanic, Rankin Aircraft 78Y
Aircraft are naturally beautiful because form follows function. -TB
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Reply #5 -
Mar 6
th
, 2005 at 9:35pm
chomp_rock
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When you have more
dumb
questions we'll be here for you
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Reply #6 -
Mar 6
th
, 2005 at 10:02pm
Citationpilot
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Only a few airplanes with adjustable pitch props don't require the PIC to have a complex or high preformance sign off. Some Arrows and Cardinals, for example, have adjustable pitch props with no signoffs needed.
Quote:
Isnt the cessna 182 an adjustable pitch prop?, its not that complex of an aircraft
The 182 requires a high preformance sign off.
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Reply #7 -
Mar 6
th
, 2005 at 10:10pm
beefhole
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common' yigs!
Philadelphia
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Quote:
Isnt the cessna 182 an adjustable pitch prop?, its not that complex of an aircraft
What do I know... not too much...
lol, no, it's not, but anything with an adjustable pitch prop is, like citation said, considered a high performance plane, also known as complex aircraft. They require an endorsement ( a singoff, also just like citation said and I said originally)
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Reply #8 -
Mar 6
th
, 2005 at 10:11pm
TacitBlue
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whats involved in getting a sign-off? taking an FAA guy for a ride to show him that you know how to use it?
A&P Mechanic, Rankin Aircraft 78Y
Aircraft are naturally beautiful because form follows function. -TB
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Reply #9 -
Mar 6
th
, 2005 at 10:17pm
Saratoga
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Depends on what you are lookin' to get a signoff for. Some you just gotta prove you can do it, others can require a good amount of training.
Pilot for a major US airline certified in the: EMB-120, CRJ, 727, 737, 757, 767, and A-320 and military, T-38, C-130, C-141, and C-5 along with misc. other small airplanes. Any questions, I'm here for you.
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Reply #10 -
Mar 6
th
, 2005 at 10:41pm
Rocket_Bird
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What about... a DHC-2? I wanna fly one of those one day
Cheers,
RB
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Reply #11 -
Mar 6
th
, 2005 at 10:49pm
R/C Ben
Ex Member
Well a guy I know was getting sigened off on a Cardinal and asked if I wanted to come along. The instructor just came up and showed him some emergency procedders, and stalls, steep turns, and that kind of stuff.
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Reply #12 -
Mar 7
th
, 2005 at 12:00am
Saratoga
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Ya gettin' signed off for prop aircraft is easy. They show you what you need to know, compare it to something you've flown before, and congradulate you. Woohoo.
Gettin' signed off for the 757 was a bit of a hassle. Doing everything in the sim, over and over, then finally getting a checkout flight in the real thing. A very very nice and desired change.
Pilot for a major US airline certified in the: EMB-120, CRJ, 727, 737, 757, 767, and A-320 and military, T-38, C-130, C-141, and C-5 along with misc. other small airplanes. Any questions, I'm here for you.
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Reply #13 -
Mar 7
th
, 2005 at 1:34am
Mobius
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You need a rating for a complex airplane which has two or all of the three following things: adjustable pitch prop, retractable landing gear, moving flaps. If an airplane has only one of these things, no extra rating needed, however, if the airplane has two, you do need tthe extra rating. Most airplanes with an adjustable pitch prop however have flaps and/or landing gear, I don't really know of many that have only an adjustable pitch prop and fixed gear w/ no flaps.
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Reply #14 -
Mar 7
th
, 2005 at 3:03am
TacitBlue
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In my experiance (wich is extremely limitted (FS mostly)) almost all airplanes have flaps.
A&P Mechanic, Rankin Aircraft 78Y
Aircraft are naturally beautiful because form follows function. -TB
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Reply #15 -
Mar 7
th
, 2005 at 4:13am
Hagar
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Costa Geriatrica
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Quote:
In my experiance (wich is extremely limitted (FS mostly)) almost all airplanes have flaps.
Not the ones I like. The original J-3 Piper Cub has no flaps or retracting gear. A real aeroplane.
Very few vintage light aircraft have flaps.
PS. Aerobatic types like the Extra in my avatar have no flaps.
«
Last Edit: Mar 7
th
, 2005 at 6:11am by Hagar
»
Founder & Sole Member - Grumpy's Over the Hill Club for Veteran Virtual Aviators
Member of the
Fox Four Group
Need help? Try
Grumpy's Lair
My photo gallery
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Reply #16 -
Mar 7
th
, 2005 at 6:31am
beaky
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Quote:
If airliners are pressurized, then why do my ears pop, and my soda taste funny?
Pressurized aircraft are set up so that at cruise alt. they're never pressurized beyond the equivalent of about 8,000 ft. MSL (to create sea level press. at high altitude would require a much heavier pressure hull); they do so by means of a bleeder valve that's set for a specific pressure. There's an air inlet, with a compressor behind it. The compressor keeps going, pressurising the fuselage, until the valve pops open. Your ears pop during climb and descent because you're going up to or down from 8,000 feet fairly rapidly...
Quote:
Can you tell how many engines a plane has by its con-trail? 2 trails=2 engines?
Good question. somebody else definitively answered this... I never wondered about that, m'self.
Quote:
Do you need a rating for adjustable pitch props?
The FAA, FBOs (renters), and insurance companies all require a logbook endorsement to prove you are OK to fly a complex aircraft (this includes retractables). It's usually just one ride with a CFI who is similarly endorsed. Technically, it's not a "rating".
Quote:
Do you need special certification for each GA plane before you can fly it?
You mean a type rating, yes? No, but in the case of FBOs, they'll want to give you a "checkout ride" even if you've already logged time in the same A.C.
BTW, "general aviation" refers to any civilian aircraft that is not used by a scheduled carrier. Technically,
any
a.c. can be considered "GA"... like John Travolta's 707, for example.It's a GA plane that requires a type rating. Doesn't just refer to light aircraft... So, to be a smartass, I'd say technically you
might
need a type rating for
some
GA aircraft... even a "demilitarized", privately owned jet fighter falls under the term "G.A".
FAA definitions of "type" and "rating":
"TYPE- As used with respect to... airmen, means a specific make and basic model of aircraft, including modifications thereto..."
"RATING- means a statement that, as part of a certificate, sets forth special conditions, privileges, or limitations."
For example, my Private Pilot Certificate says: "Ratings: Private Pilot; Airplane, Single Engine Land". There's no mention of an IFR rating, because I don't have one. this means I can't operate any kind of jet, so that's covered by default. No mention of multi-engine a.c. means I can't fly twins, etc. either, without a multiengine (pilot) rating. Likewise seaplanes. I'm also not legal to operate a balloon, blimp, or dirigible, because it says "airplane"...
International Civil Aviation Org. definition of G.A.:
"GENERAL AVIATION- All civil aviation operations other than scheduled air services and non-scheduled air transport operations for renumeration or hire."
FAA definition:
"GENERAL AVIATION- That portion of civil aviation... except air carriers... and large aircraft commercial operators."
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Reply #17 -
Mar 7
th
, 2005 at 11:55am
Saratoga
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I'll add onto rottydaddy's explanation by putting down the last question, and I might even add a picture!!! See how the four contrails form into two.
Thank you airliners.net
Pilot for a major US airline certified in the: EMB-120, CRJ, 727, 737, 757, 767, and A-320 and military, T-38, C-130, C-141, and C-5 along with misc. other small airplanes. Any questions, I'm here for you.
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Reply #18 -
Mar 7
th
, 2005 at 12:33pm
Mobius
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Yeah, you would be hard-pressed to find an airplane with an adjustable pitch prop and no flaps or retractable gear, so you pretty much need a complex aircraft rating to fly an airplane with an adjustable pitch prop.
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Reply #19 -
Mar 7
th
, 2005 at 2:57pm
Jimbo
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Ive heard as a fact that only half of your tastebud's work at 30,000. so thats why everythin taste's abit (hate this word alot) fishy
Jimbo
..Jimbo's Tours, MORE info in the MULTIPLAYER SECTION
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Reply #20 -
Mar 7
th
, 2005 at 6:28pm
beaky
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Quote:
Ive heard as a fact that only half of your tastebud's work at 30,000. so thats why everythin taste's abit (hate this word alot) fishy
Jimbo
But you're not at 30,000... you're at about 8,000, in terms of pressure. Airline food tastes like crap because it is, IMHO. I have a book called "Unfriendly Skies" written anonymously by an airline captain who suggests, among other things, that the way to get a decent meal on an airplane is to request a special-diet meal (kosher or low-sodium) in advance; they make fewer of those, and supposedly they're better-prepared. At least that's the way it might've been in the 80s when the book was written...
I wouldn't know, because I'm usually in Coach on three-hour flights, eating peanuts...
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Reply #21 -
Mar 7
th
, 2005 at 6:54pm
chomp_rock
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I'm usually in economy class shoveling those little bags of snack mix down
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Reply #22 -
Mar 7
th
, 2005 at 7:01pm
Craig.
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Quote:
Ive heard as a fact that only half of your tastebud's work at 30,000. so thats why everythin taste's abit (hate this word alot) fishy
Jimbo
Technically yes this is correct. However as rotty said its only a preassure of 8000 feet. Added to the cabin enviroment with low humidity your taste buds become ineffective. We did a whole two weeks in my food tech class on this, with the final project being to come up with a healthy new meal for airlines with enough flavor in it to make it an ideal meal for a flight. you'll find all these meals have some sort of spice or herb or added salt in them to at least give them some taste. Also the main reason they taste awful, is because they are cooked in a warehouse in huge ovens/pans. Then they are quickly re-heated in flight which tends to dry the food out and kill off most of the flavour.
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Reply #23 -
Mar 7
th
, 2005 at 8:28pm
Saratoga
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Airline pilots are lucky, we get different meals from you guys normally.
If you don't like the food, buy something from a vending machine and put it in your pocket. Good lord, give 'em some air, they are just tryin' to make money.
Pilot for a major US airline certified in the: EMB-120, CRJ, 727, 737, 757, 767, and A-320 and military, T-38, C-130, C-141, and C-5 along with misc. other small airplanes. Any questions, I'm here for you.
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Reply #24 -
Mar 7
th
, 2005 at 8:38pm
Rocket_Bird
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Hmm... I like airline food, I can have them all day and make myself super fat!!!!!!!
Cheers,
RB
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Reply #25 -
Mar 7
th
, 2005 at 8:41pm
Saratoga
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Quote:
Hmm... I like airline food, I can have them all day and make myself super fat!!!!!!!
Eh, whatever floats your boat. Easy though, we gotta keep the CG stable.
Pilot for a major US airline certified in the: EMB-120, CRJ, 727, 737, 757, 767, and A-320 and military, T-38, C-130, C-141, and C-5 along with misc. other small airplanes. Any questions, I'm here for you.
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Reply #26 -
Mar 7
th
, 2005 at 8:45pm
TacitBlue
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but then you would need to buy two tickets.
A&P Mechanic, Rankin Aircraft 78Y
Aircraft are naturally beautiful because form follows function. -TB
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Reply #27 -
Mar 7
th
, 2005 at 9:39pm
beaky
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Quote:
but then you would need to buy two tickets.
LOL- and don't forget to flip up the armrest before you sit in your seats- unless you're into that sort of thing...
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Reply #28 -
Mar 7
th
, 2005 at 9:56pm
Saratoga
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LOL. I've seen people sit on them then jump up screaming, kinda funny, I have to turn my back and laugh at them.
Also there are the really smooth people who slide into them and "trip" and fall into the window or side of the aircraft.
Pilot for a major US airline certified in the: EMB-120, CRJ, 727, 737, 757, 767, and A-320 and military, T-38, C-130, C-141, and C-5 along with misc. other small airplanes. Any questions, I'm here for you.
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Reply #29 -
Mar 8
th
, 2005 at 6:50pm
Citationpilot
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Quote:
You need a rating for a complex airplane which has two or all of the three following things: adjustable pitch prop, retractable landing gear, moving flaps. If an airplane has only one of these things, no extra rating needed, however, if the airplane has two, you do need tthe extra rating. Most airplanes with an adjustable pitch prop however have flaps and/or landing gear, I don't really know of many that have only an adjustable pitch prop and fixed gear w/ no flaps.
Are you sure about that? I seem to remember that you can fly an Arrow 180 or 200, which both have retractable gears, adjustable prop, and moving flaps, with outout a complex endorsement because it has less than 201HP. I was under the impression that to be classified as a complex aircraft, the plane in question must have
all
of the following:
- More than 200HP engine
- Retractable gear
- Adjustable Pitch prop
Edit: I was also under the impression that you can fly an Acher III or 172XP, which both have an adjustable pitch props and moving flaps with out any endorsments.
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Reply #30 -
Mar 8
th
, 2005 at 10:30pm
Saratoga
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I knew there was some sort of horsepower limit.
I've read somewhere what the requirements were. And it's on my license, so I should know. I even pulled out my Student Pilot's Flight Manual (hey it helps in the airline business), nothing in there about it.
Pilot for a major US airline certified in the: EMB-120, CRJ, 727, 737, 757, 767, and A-320 and military, T-38, C-130, C-141, and C-5 along with misc. other small airplanes. Any questions, I'm here for you.
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Reply #31 -
Mar 9
th
, 2005 at 6:15am
beaky
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Newark, NJ USA
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Quote:
LOL. I've seen people sit on them then jump up screaming, kinda funny, I have to turn my back and laugh at them.
Also there are the really smooth people who slide into them and "trip" and fall into the window or side of the aircraft.
Hehe... have you ever actually seen a "large" passenger use two seats?
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Reply #32 -
Mar 9
th
, 2005 at 11:50am
Mobius
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Highest Point in the Lightning
Storm
Wisconsin
Posts: 4369
From FAR/AIM 2003, FAR 61-12, 61.31, (e),
Additional training required for operating complex airplanes.
: (1) ...no person may act as pilot in command of a complex airplane (an airplane that has a retractable landing gear, flaps, and a controllable pitch propeller...), unless the person has-
(i) Recieved and logged ground and flight training from an authorized instructor in a complex airplane...
(ii) Recieved a one-time endorsment in the pilot's logbook from an authorized instructor who certifies the person is
proficient to operate a complex airplane.
(2) The training and endorsment required by paragraph (e)(1) of this section is not required if the person has logged flight time as PIC of a complex airplane...prior to August 4, 1997.
61.31 (f) Same mumbo-jumbo about high-performance airplanes which are defined as and airplane w/ an engine of more than 200 horsepower.
So to fly an airplane w/ an adjustable pitch prop, gear, and flaps you would need a complex rating and if that, or any other airplane you intend to fly has over 200 horsepower, you would need a high-performance aircraft rating. So, I guess we were all partially right
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Reply #33 -
Mar 9
th
, 2005 at 12:33pm
chomp_rock
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I must confess, I was
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Wow, I did all of that reading for nothing!
I'm glad to see someone cleared this up for people, I was going to quote the bible (FAR/AIM book to all of you non-pilots) word for word to explain it
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Reply #34 -
Mar 9
th
, 2005 at 8:23pm
beaky
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Newark, NJ USA
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Quote:
From FAR/AIM 2003, FAR 61-12, 61.31, (e),
Additional training required for operating complex airplanes.
: (1) ...no person may act as pilot in command of a complex airplane (an airplane that has a retractable landing gear, flaps, and a controllable pitch propeller...), unless the person has-
(i) Recieved and logged ground and flight training from an authorized instructor in a complex airplane...
(ii) Recieved a one-time endorsment in the pilot's logbook from an authorized instructor who certifies the person is
proficient to operate a complex airplane.
(2) The training and endorsment required by paragraph (e)(1) of this section is not required if the person has logged flight time as PIC of a complex airplane...prior to August 4, 1997.
61.31 (f) Same mumbo-jumbo about high-performance airplanes which are defined as and airplane w/ an engine of more than 200 horsepower.
So to fly an airplane w/ an adjustable pitch prop, gear, and flaps you would need a complex rating and if that, or any other airplane you intend to fly has over 200 horsepower, you would need a high-performance aircraft rating. So, I guess we were all partially right
Yeah, but it's not a "rating" as defined by FAR/AIM; it's an "endorsement".
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Reply #35 -
Mar 9
th
, 2005 at 8:54pm
Mobius
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Colonel
Highest Point in the Lightning
Storm
Wisconsin
Posts: 4369
Same thing kinda
. You need to take lessons for it then have some qualified person tell you you can do it on your own. Rating, Endorsment, whatever you want to call it, fine by me.
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Reply #36 -
Mar 9
th
, 2005 at 11:38pm
beaky
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I just look for the FAA's words to describe the FAA's laws...
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Reply #37 -
Mar 11
th
, 2005 at 12:20am
Rocket_Bird
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Colonel
Canada
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Posts: 1214
Hmm, heres the wording "an airplane that has a retractable landing gear, flaps,
AND
a controllable pitch propeller"
I would assume that you need all 3 in order to classify as a complex aircraft otherwise it would be an or instead of an and... whew!!!
Cheers,
RB
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Reply #38 -
Mar 12
th
, 2005 at 9:23pm
Saratoga
Offline
Colonel
757/767 Captain Major,
USAF
Dallas-Ft. Worth Intl. (KDFW)
Gender:
Posts: 571
Quote:
Hehe... have you ever actually seen a "large" passenger use two seats?
Yup. I've seen many people stretch out when the seats next to them were open, but I have actually seen "large" passengers take as many seats as they could. Have had to argue with them before (I'm not the standard cooperative airline pilot) when they believed they deserved the adjacent seats more than the people who paid for them.
Though if there is a person in the adjacent seat traveling alone, and there are open seats in F/C, I might just upgrade them.
Pilot for a major US airline certified in the: EMB-120, CRJ, 727, 737, 757, 767, and A-320 and military, T-38, C-130, C-141, and C-5 along with misc. other small airplanes. Any questions, I'm here for you.
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