Search the archive:
YaBB - Yet another Bulletin Board
 
   
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1
Send Topic Print
Air Combat - Spitfires vs Tempests (Read 454 times)
Feb 6th, 2005 at 6:24pm

Felix/FFDS   Offline
Admin
FINALLY an official Granddad!
Orlando, FL

Gender: male
Posts: 1000000627
*****
 
Who would come out on top?  (yes,  all aircraft being of the piston engined, monoplane variety)

 

Felix/FFDS...
IP Logged
 
Reply #1 - Feb 6th, 2005 at 6:55pm

C   Offline
Colonel
Earth

Posts: 13144
*****
 
Quote:
Who would come out on top?  (yes,  all aircraft being of the piston engined, monoplane variety)



Which Mks... I presume you're talking Spit XIVs onwards vs all the (fighting) Tempests.

Not having mush experience of the Tempest, I'd probably back the Spit in a fight, although if attacking from the rear (ie, chasing), I'd possibly back the Tempest, as I imagine it was slightly faster...
 
IP Logged
 
Reply #2 - Feb 6th, 2005 at 8:15pm

Felix/FFDS   Offline
Admin
FINALLY an official Granddad!
Orlando, FL

Gender: male
Posts: 1000000627
*****
 
Loaded question - of course.

a couple of IAF Mk.IXs jumped a formation of RAF Tempests, at least one went straight down.

Fog of war came to play in the matter,  as well.

 

Felix/FFDS...
IP Logged
 
Reply #3 - Feb 7th, 2005 at 10:32am

HawkerTempest5   Offline
Colonel
Hawker Tempest MK V
United Kingdom

Gender: male
Posts: 3149
*****
 
CFS speaking Tempest beats Spit IX but Spit XIV beats Tempest Wink
In reality I reckon at low/medium altitude the Tempest was most likely a better bet but at higher altitude I would back the Spit XIV. Not much to choose speed wise between the two but the Tempest had better firepower with 4x20mm. IAF and Egyptian Spit IXs also beat up on a few RAF Spit XVIIIs I believe.
 

...
Flying Legends
IP Logged
 
Reply #4 - Feb 7th, 2005 at 10:50am

Felix/FFDS   Offline
Admin
FINALLY an official Granddad!
Orlando, FL

Gender: male
Posts: 1000000627
*****
 
Quote:
Not much to choose speed wise between the two but the Tempest had better firepower with 4x20mm. IAF and Egyptian Spit IXs also beat up on a few RAF Spit XVIIIs I believe.


The actions occurred over a few days, and it marked the last time that the RAF had air to air action.  The MkXVIIIs had the misfortune of investigating an Israeli truck column that had just been attacked by Egyptian Spitfires when a couple of nearby Israeli Spits rolled in, thinking the RAF Spits were the attackers.  The next day, the Tempest flight was coming in to "check" the situation, ....
 

Felix/FFDS...
IP Logged
 
Reply #5 - Feb 7th, 2005 at 11:16am

Hagar   Offline
Colonel
My Spitfire Girl
Costa Geriatrica

Posts: 33159
*****
 
Quote:
Fog of war came to play in the matter,  as well.

I think that is an understatement & hardly a fair comparison between the 2 types. Wink

I remember reading about this incident some years ago. Very interesting story & a confusing situation. I found this site dedicated to the subject of IAF vs RAF. http://www.spyflight.co.uk/iafvraf.HTM
I don't know how current, accurate or unbiased the account is. I picked out these relevant details.

Quote:
Israel v the RAF - caught in the middle - air combat between Israel and the RAF
Since the end of Second World War, only six RAF aircraft flown by RAF pilots have been lost in air-to-air engagements; the most recent was on November 6, 1956 when a Syrian Gloster Meteor F-8 shot down an English Electric Canberra PR7 over Syria, killing one of the crew. The other five aircraft were shot down by a Canadian and three Americans, flying as volunteers for the Israeli Air Force, during three confused and controversial encounters between former comrades in arms in the skies over Israel and the barren Sinai desert.

Quote:
Eventually at around 1500hrs, four Spitfire FR18's of 208 Sqn, led by Sqn Ldr Morgan, took off ......... after rendezvousing with the Tempests over Fayid, they headed for the border. The Spitfires flew in the lead at 500ft, followed by seven Tempests of 213 Sqn led by Gp Capt A F Anderson, OC 324 Wg, acting as medium cover at 6,000ft, together with another eight Tempests of 6 Sqn led by Sqn Ldr Denis Crowley-Milling providing rear top cover at 10,000ft. .......... Then, near Rafah, Anderson suddenly noticed a formation of aircraft diving to attack his section of aircraft and immediately ordered a break to starboard. However, when the 213 Sqn Tempests engaged the attacking aircraft, they suddenly discovered they were unable to return fire. (Guns Jammed [Hagar])

Quote:
The four attacking aircraft were IAF Spitfires led by Ezer Weizman ........ a native Israeli who served in the RAF during the WW2, but only received his wings in 1945 after the war was finished. As his wingman Weizman had Alex 'Sandy' Jacobs, who was born in Palestine of British parents and who also served with the RAF in WW2. The two other pilots were American volunteers, Bill Schroeder and Caesar Dangott, both of whom had flown with the US Navy in WW2. As he dived towards the formation, Bill Schroeder singled out a Tempest flown by Plt Off David Tattersfield of 213 Sqn, a young, inexperienced pilot who had only been on the unit a couple of weeks. Tattersfield was probably concentrating on just maintaining formation and if he did see any Spitfires turning behind the formation, like Liquorish, he had every reason to assume they were friendly. Turning in out of the sun, Schroeder quickly got on the tail of the Tattersfield and opened fire. Tattersfield was probably killed instantly, as his aircraft was seen to turn over on its back almost immediately and dive vertically down to crash onto the desert floor and burst into flames.

Quote:
As soon as he heard Anderson's warning, Crowley-Milling, flying top cover, led his section of aircraft down to attack the IAF Spitfires - their aircraft's guns operated correctly and they were able to return fire. However, when the Tempest pilots attempted to jettison the drop tanks they were carrying, to increase the aircrafts manoeuvrability, the lever used to jettison the tanks could not be moved. It was later discovered that the release pins were too heavily loaded to be released, because the ground crew had over-tightened the cradle arms after each sortie to ensure the tanks were held firmly in place.


PS. The RAF aircraft were searching for 3 missing Spitfires shot down earlier in the day, apparently by the IAF whose pilots mistook them for Egyptian AF Spitfires. Another Spitfire had been shot down by Israeli AAA fire, again apparently by mistake.
Quote:
Not expecting to come under attack, and preoccupied by watching Close descend in his parachute, the three RAF pilots probably mis-identified the two IAF Spitfires turning behind them as being part of their own formation. The IAF Spitfires pounced on the formation, assuming they were actually REAF Spitfires and responsible for the attack on the Israeli column.
 

...

Founder & Sole Member - Grumpy's Over the Hill Club for Veteran Virtual Aviators
Member of the Fox Four Group

Need help? Try Grumpy's Lair

My photo gallery
IP Logged
 
Reply #6 - Feb 7th, 2005 at 2:01pm

Woodlouse2002   Offline
Colonel
I like jam.
Cornwall, England

Gender: male
Posts: 12574
*****
 
I think all in all the dogfight would depend on who jumped who. And would probably last no longer than a few seconds.

As for these Isreali incidents, notice how it took British aircraft so shoot down the RAF in air to air combat. Cheesy Grin
 

Woodlouse2002 PITA and BAR!!!!!!!!&&&&Our Sovereign Lord the King chargeth and commandeth all persons, being assembled, immediately to disperse themselves, and peaceably to depart to their habitations, or to their lawful business, upon the pains contained in the Act made in the first year of King George the First for preventing tumults and riotous assemblies. God Save the King.&&&&Viva la revolution!
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1
Send Topic Print