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Slips (Read 2282 times)
Jan 25
th
, 2005 at 1:50pm
jimclarke
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What is the difference between a forward slip and a side slip, and how do you perform each one?
Jim
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Reply #1 -
Jan 25
th
, 2005 at 7:01pm
beefhole
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Hmm, I'll stick to the sideslip since it's the only one I've actually done.
A sideslip is done to counter a crosswind (as you probably know). One wing is dipped into the crosswind, and then opposite rudder is applied to keep the nose straight. For example-
Landing on runway 6, winds 095/15
You would dip the right wing into the wind, then apply left rudder to keep the nose on the centerline.
I would go consult me books for the forward slip but I'm being yelled at to get off he computer.
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Jan 25
th
, 2005 at 7:08pm
Hagar
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A sideslip is often used to lose height rapidly & safely when landing in a restricted space. Mainly by light aircraft & gliders operating from small fields. Point the wing at the runway & use opposite rudder to compensate. I'm told that it's impossible to stall from a correctly performed sideslip.
I've never heard of a forward slip.
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Reply #3 -
Jan 25
th
, 2005 at 8:25pm
Boss_BlueAngels
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I don't know if maybe it has to do with geographic location... but for private pilot training here in the US the Forward slip is what Hagar just discribed. Used for landing.
Also, it
is
possible to stall from a forward(side) slip if you don't know what you're doing. Since you are in a crossed control situation (left aileron, right rudder) it can be a potentially hazardous situation. But... if you dip the wings
and
the nose at the same time you'll be just fine. Just don't do it when trying to shallow up your descent. lol Or you'll impact the ground rather quickly with a flash of alluminum. But, as Hagar said... you're perfectly safe when you do it, perfectly.
And BTW, man, I missed doing forward sips, they're so fun! Specially for the people on the ground... "That guys landing sideways!!" lol
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Jan 25
th
, 2005 at 9:14pm
beefhole
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I was taught the terminology was sideslip. perhaps they're one in the same.
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Jan 25
th
, 2005 at 10:23pm
beaky
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Everyone so far is more or less right, but let me try to sum it up:
A forward slip is done to lose altitude over less distance without increasing airspeed (generally used to get past an obstacle close to the approach end of a short runway) . Use rudder to point the nose to the side somewhat (into the wind if there is a crosswind; otherwise slip so that the side you're sitting on is facing forward, so you can see better), and at the same time lower the wing that is now forward. The excess drag of "flying sideways", and the reduced efficiency of the wings at such an angle will help keep the airspeed down while consequently reducing lift to give you that steeper descent. Your rate of descent will probably be higher than normal too, which can be very helpful in an emergency (fire, deteriorating weather, etc.). But not too fast...!!
A sideslip is used to maintain alignment with the centerline when there's a crosswind. Rudder is used to keep the nose aligned with the runway centerline, and the upwind wing is lowered just enough to keep the airplane from drifting to one side or the other.
Bear in mind that in both cases, you will be slightly "cross-controlled" (right rudder with left aileron, for example), so you need to be careful. Stalling on final in a cross-controlled state can easily lead to a spin, with insufficient altitude for recovery. Definitely more likely w/ a forward slip than a sideslip, as there's usually a lot more rudder involved.
From the USDOT Flight Training Handbook, ca. 1980
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Reply #6 -
Jan 25
th
, 2005 at 10:56pm
beefhole
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OOHHH great, that clears it up. I've done a sideslip, looks like the forwardslip is for REALLY bad crosswinds.
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Reply #7 -
Jan 26
th
, 2005 at 4:18am
Hagar
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Thanks Rotty. I suspected as much but, being old-fashioned, a forward slip is still a sideslip to me. The aircraft is still moving sideways through the air so it's sideslipping. Far less confusing & easier to visualise. The term "forward slip" seems an oxymoron to me. How can an aircraft slip forwards? ??? Explain that to a student.
I've been interested in aviation since I was 6 years old & read many books on the subject over the years. I got my gliding licence when I was 16 & my first job (in 1960) was with a flying club. I've been in the aviation industry all my working life. This is the first time I've ever heard the expression.
Quote:
OOHHH great, that clears it up. I've done a sideslip, looks like the forwardslip is for REALLY bad crosswinds.
No Beefy. You have the wrong idea. Nothing to do with crosswinds. This "forward slip" is simply a different term for a sideslip used to lose excess altitude quickly on the approach, typically to get into small fields over high obstacles (like tall trees) on the boundary. Some pilots might change the direction of the slip several times during the approach. When done properly by an experienced pilot it's beautiful to watch. There are other times it can come in handy but you can do it when there is no wind at all. I think this proves my point about the confusion.
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Reply #8 -
Jan 26
th
, 2005 at 6:18am
beaky
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Quote:
Thanks Rotty. I suspected as much but, being old-fashioned, a forward slip is still a sideslip to me.
Think of it this way: the term "slip"indicates the plane is not going entirely nose-first into the relative wind ( I know it's not that simple, but you get my meaning?). So now to describe slipping along one's ground track (the runway centerline), with the low wing leading the way, the term "forward slip" makes some sense. Likewise, to describe slipping across one's track, just quickly enough to compensate for wind blowing across that track, the term "sideslip" is more appropriate. Anyway, that's how I clarified it for myself; I needed to do that, 'cause these maneuvers are two very different animals! I guess you could call them the "sideslip" and the "forward sideslip"...
Quote:
I've been interested in aviation since I was 6 years old & read many books on the subject over the years. I got my gliding licence when I was 16 & my first job (in 1960) was with a flying club. I've been in the aviation industry all my working life. This is the first time I've ever heard the expression.
Doesn't surprise me... reminds me of the US/UK discrepancy between "angle of attack" and "angle of incidence". Let's face it, you people talk funny.
Doesn't matter, as your introduction to slips was probably more practical ("sideslip this way, or this way"...). Probably for the best, 'cuz a demonstration is worth a thousand words... but it's odd that you've never seen the term "forward slip" in a book; I own a few that mention it by that name, i.e. the USDOT manual shown above. Maybe it's a relatively new distinction in books...
Quote:
No Beefy. You have the wrong idea. Nothing to do with crosswinds. This "forward slip" is simply a different term for a sideslip used to lose excess altitude quickly on the approach, typically to get into small fields over high obstacles (like tall trees) on the boundary. When done properly by an experienced pilot it's beautiful to watch.
He's right, beefy. And not only is it beautiful to watch, it's a joy to execute! Very handy sometimes- I've often done it to salvage a high approach, as well as for clearing obstacles.
Quote:
There are other times it can come in handy but you can do it when there is no wind at all.
I've found the forward slip is much easier to execute without much crosswind... if your nose is pointed to the right into the wind and your downwind (left) wing is low, you may not be able to check that drift very well. As for yawing away from the crosswind: I've never tried it. With a good crosswind, I'll stick with a sideslip or a good ol' crab (coordinated turn into the wind) .
BTW beefhole: Some aircraft are placarded with a prohibition against slipping (side or forward) with full flaps. C172s are one type; supposedly, with more than 10 degrees of flap, you could "blank out" the tail during a slip, which could cause the nose to rise or drop when you don't want it to, possibly encouraging a stall. Some pilots poo-poo that; I have no interest in proving them wrong, but the theory seems sound to me. Always check first before you slip. And if you're landing on a short runway with obstacles nearby, if you have to go around, you're better off with no more than one notch of flaps anyway- there might be obstacles at the departure end, too...
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Jan 26
th
, 2005 at 6:31am
Hagar
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Here's an example of a sideslip approach. Call it a forward slip if you wish. I spend a lot of time just hanging around the local airport watching aircraft take off & land. Sorry for the quality of the shots. They were taken some time ago before I got my new camera.
This is aerobatic display pilot Denny Dobson doing a typical landing. It's impossible to see over the nose of the 2-seat Extra 300 from the rear seat so he appproaches at 45 degrees to the runway. The Extra has windows below the wing so from this angle he can see the runway clearly throughout the approach. It might be a tad exaggerated as Denny is a bit of a show-off.
Lining up & starting the slip.
Believe or not the aircraft is heading straight for me.
Still at 45 degrees to the runway & right on the spot. He will now kick it straight for a perfect touchdown.
PS. The wind direction was almost straight up the runway.
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Reply #10 -
Jan 26
th
, 2005 at 4:43pm
beefhole
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D'OH! For the record, I knew that. I swear
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Jan 26
th
, 2005 at 7:20pm
beaky
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Cool... pictures explain a lot. That's a great example of what I call a forward slip. No need to apologize for the quality; it's a great aviation moment, esp. the 3rd shot. Reminds me of this one I took at the Sussex, NJ show a few years back: Roger Lenhert doing his "Flying "Farmer" bit in a stock J3. He usually starts with a nail-biting low-speed loop right after takeoff, then proceeds to do all this wonderful low and slow stuff that's just amazing. Here he is , floating (I swear) from well outside the frame of this shot to a point well to the left. Very masterful control of throttle is needed to do this, not to mention the aileron and rudder work. So here's a question: is this a slip, or what?
He's pretty well crossed up here, at a very low airspeed, very close to the ground. I haven't been able to pull this off yet in the FS9 Cub, but I'm working on it...
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Jan 26
th
, 2005 at 7:33pm
Hagar
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LOL. I forget what the aerobatic guys call that but it looks more like a vertical knife-edge manoeuvre. You would need a lot of faith in the engine to do it that close to the ground.
Quote:
Sussex, NJ
Strange that. I was born & still live in the original Sussex - 3,000 miles away, give or take a few.
http://www.sussex.co.uk/
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Reply #13 -
Jan 26
th
, 2005 at 8:05pm
beaky
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Lenhert's good. I imagine he's lost power at least once doing this stuff, but the beauty of the J3 is that even that low, you'll walk away from your "arrival" if you act quickly, I bet. There's another guy I've seen around here named Stan Segalla; does the same thing: crazy stunts in a stock J-3. Are you familiar with the "Flying Farmer" routine?
Sussex Airport (FWN) is home to "The Biggest Little Airshow in the World"... it never disappoints. I've seen some of the very best there... have a few more pix i should really get around to posting sometime (not tonight- I'm gonna fly the sim for a change!). Hmmm... I wonder if Beefhole is totally confused now, or what??
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Jan 26
th
, 2005 at 8:22pm
Hagar
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Quote:
There's another guy I've seen around here named Stan Segalla; does the same thing: crazy stunts in a stock J-3. Are you familiar with the "Flying Farmer" routine?
Yes, I believe I told you I had the pleasure of meeting Mr. Segalla on a visit to ORA some years ago. We had a nice long chat too. He's a nice man & a great aviator. Fantastic routine in that Cub.
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Reply #15 -
Jan 26
th
, 2005 at 8:24pm
beefhole
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Quote:
Hmmm... I wonder if Beefhole is totally confused now, or what??
???WHAT'S GOING ON HERE? WHO ARE YOU PEOPLE?
??? 8) ???
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Jan 27
th
, 2005 at 5:49pm
beaky
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[quote author=beefhole link=board=school;num=1106679026;start=15#15 date=01/26/05 at 20:24:51]
???WHAT'S GOING ON HERE? WHO ARE YOU PEOPLE?
??? 8) ???
[/quote
Easy, easy... everything is going to be OK.... we want to help you... yeah, that's it, help you.... just relax and look at this:
That's right, it's a J3 doing a "Slew-Mode" maneuver! Flying is so straightforward and simple, isn't it (snicker)?
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Jan 27
th
, 2005 at 6:12pm
Hagar
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I know one thing. That's not a forward slip or any other sort of slip.
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Jan 27
th
, 2005 at 6:29pm
beaky
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Quote:
I know one thing. That's not a forward slip or any other sort of slip.
You're right; I think that's Mr. Segalla (at ORA)... that's the part when he comes in with the prop stopped and leans out to pick his hat up off the ground just before the tail finally drops. I was trying that knife-edge thing w/FS9 last night, and the low-speed loop, and the thing those guys do to raise the tail with the brakes on, and couldn't do it- even with a nearly empty fuel tank and no baggage... of course I could do those things, if only the sim were more realistic
... I mean, I've got about 5 whole minutes' worth of stick time in a real Cub, so I must have it down pat!
I think I'll post some more Sussex pix tonight, so check 'em out. There's one more amazing Cub shot in that group.
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Jan 27
th
, 2005 at 6:48pm
Hagar
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Quote:
You're right; I think that's Mr. Segalla (at ORA)... that's the part when he comes in with the prop stopped and leans out to pick his hat up off the ground just before the tail finally drops.
You know very well that it's Stanley Segalla.
I have some old photos of the same routine.
Quote:
I was trying that knife-edge thing w/FS9 last night, and the low-speed loop, and the thing those guys do to raise the tail with the brakes on, and couldn't do it- even with a nearly empty fuel tank and no baggage... of course I could do those things, if only the sim were more realistic
... I mean, I've got about 5 whole minutes' worth of stick time in a real Cub, so I must have it down pat!
Despite all the claims I have my doubts that it's as "real as it gets". Try doing a good old -fashioned conventional spin in any version of FS.
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Jan 27
th
, 2005 at 8:32pm
beaky
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Quote:
You know very well that it's Stanley Segalla.
I have some old photos of the same routine.
I only wasn't sure because Lenhert does the same thing; I couldn't recall if I've seen him do it at ORA. I love the Flying Farmer bit; it's corny but the rubes often fall for it (at first), and it's some of the best flying you're gonna see. The low and slow nature of it really allows a good look at what's going on, too.
Despite all the claims I have my doubts that it's as "real as it gets". Try doing a good old -fashioned conventional spin in any version of FS.
Oh, yeah, spins are not what they should be in FS9. I've only done one turn in RL (in a C172- the only CFI I ever had who cared enough to show me), but I can tell it's not quite right.
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Jan 28
th
, 2005 at 5:13am
Hagar
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Quote:
I only wasn't sure because Lenhert does the same thing; I couldn't recall if I've seen him do it at ORA. I love the Flying Farmer bit; it's corny but the rubes often fall for it (at first), and it's some of the best flying you're gonna see. The low and slow nature of it really allows a good look at what's going on, too.
I've not seen Roger Lenhert but that looks like ORA to me. When I congratulated Stanley Segalla on his magnificent display in terrible conditions he thanked me & said "You must be a pilot". A charming man.
I asked him about spinning the Cub as I thought it was almost impossble. He said it spins fine (I already knew that as I saw him do it) if you know how to do it, with power applied. He showed me some small airflow smoothing devices attached at regular intervals on the leading edges of the wings. Someone had sent them for him to check out. He said he didn't know if they helped or not but they certainly did no harm so he left them on there.
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Jan 28
th
, 2005 at 5:53am
beaky
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You're right, that is ORA. I think I remember the deal now: Segalla does his show at ORA, and Lenhert at Sussex, but never vice-versa. Which conjures up a nice thought: how about the two of them doing a show together? Formation Cub aerobatics...!
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