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The Finnish in WWII (Read 621 times)
Jan 22
nd
, 2005 at 5:08pm
Omag 2.0
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Hi all,
Since Ville posted a Finnish Fokker in the screenshot contest-forum, I've been wondering what the Finnish were about in the war.
Theis explaned that the Finnish blue swastika isn't linked to the German regime. But they did fight with the Russians.
So what's the story, where they allies? Axis? Neutral?
Seems to me I've missed that part in history-class.
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Reply #1 -
Jan 22
nd
, 2005 at 5:20pm
Ivan
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The finnish did have some fights with the russians...
whatever the germans had to do with it... i have heard that they had sent some bf109s to them but that's all
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Reply #2 -
Jan 22
nd
, 2005 at 5:44pm
Woodlouse2002
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Finland would have been under German control if you look at the map of 1942 europe. So I assume they wern't doing much. In 1939 though they were at war with Russia. But after they lost I'm not sure whether they joined forces with the Germans or not.
Having thought about it, the Finns did have some Brewster Buffaloes. So god knows who's side they were on.
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Reply #3 -
Jan 22
nd
, 2005 at 11:51pm
Felix/FFDS
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For a review of the overall "Winter War", check
http://www.feldgrau.com/wwar.html
Basically, Russia's war against Finland (1939-1940) added a buffer between the Finnish border and Leningrad. During that war, foreign support for Finland came mostly from Swedish volunteers. Promised support from the "Allies" didn't materialize in time, given the situation in Europe.
Note that the Soviets timed their invasion of Finland to match their invasion of Poland, and the western preoccupation with Germany.
While the Finns extracted a heavy toll on the more numerous Soviets, numbers ground them down. THey lost some territory. In return, the Russians gained some needed experience in fighting in heavy winter conditions.
In the "Continuation War", Finland accepted military aid from the Germans (the only ones in a condition to offer aid, because it also served their purposes) and when Germany invaded Russia in 1941, the Finns came in to recover the lost territory. The "alliance" with Germany was one of convenience only, since the Finn's aim was to recover territory lost. If I recall correctly, the Finns stopped their advance at the 1939 border. Because of this, after the war, the Finns were not "absorbed" behind the Iron Curtain, but were within a certain "sphere of influence" but neutral in world affairs. This is why, post war, the Finns used Migs, etc.
Finland used an eclectic mix of aircraft from all sides. Apart from the well known Buffaloes (if it was such a bad airplane, why were there a number of Finnish aces in the airplane?) and German aircraft (Ju-88, 109Gs, etc), they had a number of Morane Saulnier MS.406 fighters, which morphed into the "Morko-Moranes" (a Russian engine shoe horned into the French airplane), Blenheims, etc.
In short, Finland was neither "Axis" nor "Allied", and definitely not "Neutral". It was a true case of "self-preservation". They ticked off the Germans because they wouldn't press on to Leningrad (something that would probably have broken the seige of Leningrad early on ad caused the city to fall..)..
Finland's war with Russia is always interesting reading.
Felix/
FFDS
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Reply #4 -
Jan 23
rd
, 2005 at 12:42am
denishc
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To begin with, the Finns and Russia were involved in a border dispute in the winter of 1939 that led to what would be called "The Winter War".
Russia, not trusting the Germans to honor the pact they signed prior to the invasion of Poland, wanted Finalnd to give her "the use of land and bases to safeguard the approaches to Leningrad through the Gulf of Finland in the event of an attack by Germany". Unable to bully Finland into giving in to their demands, Russia invaded Finland on November 30. The conflict lasted 14 weeks and saw much of the world condemn Russia as an aggressor. Many countries, like the U.S. and Britian, came to the aid of Finland and supplied the Finns with arms and material (thats when the U.S. sent the Finns Brewster Buffaloes, but the aircraft didn't arrive until the Winter War was over).
The Finns fought well, but were overmatched and realized the situation was hopeless. They agreed to an armistice on March 13 that ended the Winter War.
In the summer of 1940, when Germany attacked Russia, the Finns joined the Germans as "Co-belligerents" against Russia (as did Hungry) and struck out to recapture territory it had lost in the Winter War. This was known as "The Continuation War". As Co-belligerents, Germany either gave or sold Me-109s to Finland.
As the tides of war changed for Germany and swung in the favor of Russia, Finland switch allegiances and turned against Germany. I'm not sure why the Finns changed sides, but I'm sure that invasion by Russian forces had something to do with it.
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Reply #5 -
Jan 23
rd
, 2005 at 2:10am
Flt.Lt.Andrew
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Ah the Fins, one can only think of Quisling....
I remember a Finnish proverb, where two men are in a large ditch, with Russians coming at them from all sides (this is in the Winter War) one says "there are so many of them!" the other replies "how will we bury them all?"
The Fins led a very confusing war, which involved some bizarre side switching.....
A.
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Reply #6 -
Jan 23
rd
, 2005 at 4:00am
Hagar
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Quote:
Ah the Fins, one can only think of Quisling....
Vidkun Quisling was Norwegian & leader of Norway's fascist party.
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Reply #7 -
Jan 23
rd
, 2005 at 5:43am
Hagar
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Quote:
As the tides of war changed for Germany and swung in the favor of Russia, Finland switch allegiances and turned against Germany. I'm not sure why the Finns changed sides, but I'm sure that invasion by Russian forces had something to do with it.
As I understand it, Russia changed sides - not Finland. As Felix pointed out, Finland was protecting its own interests & allied to neither side in WWII. The border dispute with Russia just happened to coincide with it. Finland was involved in 3 separate wars with Russia during this time.
http://www.zum.de/whkmla/region/scandinavia/fin193945.html
German Forces invaded the USSR on June 22nd 1941, breaking the Non-aggression pact of Aug. 23rd 1939. This changed the whole situation, effectively bringing Soviet Russia over to the Allied side & making Finland an ally of Germany, technically at least as Finland had no allegiance to either of the main protagonists in the wider conflict. This explains the variety of different aircraft types used by the Finnish Air Force between 1939 & 1945. Details of types here.
http://www.sci.fi/~ambush/faf/color.html
PS.
Quote:
In 1939 though they were at war with Russia. But after they lost I'm not sure whether they joined forces with the Germans or not.
Apart from ceding part of its territory during the Winter War (November 1939 - March 1940) Finland did not lose.
Quote:
Germany and the USSR agreed on mutual spheres of interest in Eastern Central Europe, in effect undoing the changes after World War I. Finland was assigned to the USSR, and on November 30th 1939 the Red Army attacked, expecting an easy victory. However, the Finns were able to halt the Soviet invasion in what is known as the WINTER WAR. Volunteers from Sweden, the US and Canada (mostly descendants of Finnish emigrants) signed up, and both Britain and France considered entering the war on Finland's side, when Stalin gave in. In the PEACE OF MOSCOW (March 12th 1940) Finland preserved it's independence, but had to cede EASTERN KARELIA to the USSR.
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Reply #8 -
Jan 25
th
, 2005 at 1:07pm
Theis
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really interesting stuff here
and its so cool to help youre all
(thinking on my post about the finnish swastika).
Cheers Theis
Bar by Mees
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Reply #9 -
Jan 28
th
, 2005 at 5:18pm
beaky
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Interesting stuff. I recall seeing a map of the situation at that time, and it led me to believe that Finland was basically "taken over" by the Nazis (it was probably in a 60s-era US school textbook). But it sounds like they were pragmatic about their situation (geographically vulnerable, outgunned and outmanned by both sides), and tried to play both sides a bit in order to protect their own.
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