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De-Ice questions (Read 886 times)
Reply #30 - Aug 22nd, 2004 at 10:42am

iwannaflySC   Offline
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Hey guys -- love these forums (... well I guess I should've said "fora" eh? Smiley).  This has been a most informative thread.  If y'all will tolerate some ramblings from a newbie on here ...

Quote:
Fluid is a generic term for a material which will flow, i.e. anything except a solid.


Actually -- even solids can behave like fluids.  A glacier is a solid that flows -- as a solid. Veeeeeery slowly. 
Now there's some ice you don't want in contact with your pitot tube, or wings, or anything else ...  Grin

(Complete aside -- I actually got to go and see, and walk on, some pretty amazing glaciers in Alaska this summer.  Guess where a lot of my fs9 flights have been since? Smiley

My question is -- how does one set icing conditions in fs9? Go to a cold part of the world and fly in winter? Is there a way to control temps and stuff in the weather menu?  Thanks y'all!
 
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Reply #31 - Aug 22nd, 2004 at 10:57am

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Any fluids are not solid, glass is thought of as a solid, but actually it is a liquid, it has a very high viscosity which means it appears to be a solid.
 

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Reply #32 - Aug 22nd, 2004 at 12:15pm

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Quote:
Any fluids are not solid, glass is thought of as a solid, but actually it is a liquid, it has a very high viscosity which means it appears to be a solid.


Now you're in my professional field........ceramics.....

glass is a "supercooled liquid".

best,

.................john
 

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Reply #33 - Aug 22nd, 2004 at 1:58pm

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Quote:
Well it can be looked at like this. If air was 100% oxygen(which it isn't, about 78% nitrogen and 21%) then it would be a gas, but you add hydrogen it turns into water so in sense when you have high moisture in your little pitot tube it is then filled with a liquid, which in certain temperatures will freeze then cause instrument failure and impending doom  Grin

This reminds me of the argument: Mercury the only liquid that isn't a liquid............
Denpending on who you ask some will say it is a metal, some a liquid. Wink


Actually, the water in the air is a vapor (gas) and mercury, at room temperature, is a liquid.

Matter can exist in three stages: solid, liquid, and gas (acutally there are two more: plasma and Bose-Einstein condensate, which occur at high and low temperatures, respectively).  Of these liquid, gas, and plasma are fluids.

Most materials can exist at all of these states (and all element can exist at these states).  Water can be ice, liquid water, and vapor.

Water droplets that form clouds are small drops of liquid water.  So yes, a pitot tube can have liquid in it when flying through clouds.  (In fact, pitot tubes can be used under water to measure liquid water flows.  Cessnas however do not like to be flown under water).

Metals can be liquid or gasous.  Hydrogen, for example, is a metal, although it is gasous at room temperature.  Mercury is a metal which is liquid at room temperature.  Both hydrogen and mercury are fluid at room temperature.  Iron can be heated up and melted in to a liquid, then heated more and boiled in to a gas (though I challenge you to find a material to use as a container to hold it).
 
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Reply #34 - Aug 22nd, 2004 at 2:02pm

Chris_F   Offline
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Quote:
Hey guys -- love these forums (... well I guess I should've said "fora" eh? Smiley).  This has been a most informative thread.  If y'all will tolerate some ramblings from a newbie on here ...


Actually -- even solids can behave like fluids.  A glacier is a solid that flows -- as a solid. Veeeeeery slowly.  
Now there's some ice you don't want in contact with your pitot tube, or wings, or anything else ...  Grin
 


The actual ice in a glacier doesn't flow.  It cracks in to pieces and the pieces move past eachother.  Just imagine a large scale sand pile sliding down a hill side or imagine dumping a dump truck full of basket balls.  The basket balls themselves don't deform, but when viewed in mass the whole thing looks like it's flowing.  The ice in a glacier doesn't flow.
 
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Reply #35 - Aug 22nd, 2004 at 2:09pm

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Quote:
Now you're in my professional field........ceramics.....

glass is a "supercooled liquid".

best,

.................john


Correct, but it won't deform under its own weight at room temperature, and at room temperature glass can not be made to "flow".  If you apply enough shear to it to cause it to flow it will crack.  The non-crystaline structure of glass is indeed more like a liquid then a solid, but it will not behave as a liquid in the traditional sense (it will not flow).  In this case glass is an example of a liquid which is not a fluid.  Confused yet?

BTW, stories of old window panes of glass which have shown evidence of "flow" over time are misinterpretations.  The glass did not flow at all.  Old techniques of glass used to produce a very rippled pane which varied in thickness.  The person who installed the glass would install them thick side down (it's more stable that way).  There are however instances of people making mistakes when installing panes and installing them thick side up.  Despite this "evidence" it should not be assumed that glass can be made to flow upwards.  The glass in fact did not flow at all and the phenomena is simply a result of old glass making and installation techniques.

 
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Reply #36 - Aug 22nd, 2004 at 3:26pm

iwannaflySC   Offline
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Quote:
The actual ice in a glacier doesn't flow.  It cracks in to pieces and the pieces move past eachother.  Just imagine a large scale sand pile sliding down a hill side or imagine dumping a dump truck full of basket balls.  The basket balls themselves don't deform, but when viewed in mass the whole thing looks like it's flowing.  The ice in a glacier doesn't flow.


You know what Chris_F -- you're quite right.  I guess I wasn't remembering my earth science classes too well.  My bad! Smiley
 
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Reply #37 - Aug 22nd, 2004 at 4:16pm

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Quote:
Correct, but it won't deform under its own weight at room temperature, and at room temperature glass can not be made to "flow".  If you apply enough shear to it to cause it to flow it will crack.  The non-crystaline structure of glass is indeed more like a liquid then a solid, but it will not behave as a liquid in the traditional sense (it will not flow).  In this case glass is an example of a liquid which is not a fluid.  Confused yet?

BTW, stories of old window panes of glass which have shown evidence of "flow" over time are misinterpretations.  The glass did not flow at all.  Old techniques of glass used to produce a very rippled pane which varied in thickness.  The person who installed the glass would install them thick side down (it's more stable that way).  There are however instances of people making mistakes when installing panes and installing them thick side up.  Despite this "evidence" it should not be assumed that glass can be made to flow upwards.  The glass in fact did not flow at all and the phenomena is simply a result of old glass making and installation techniques.


Chris,

Good to see someone who knows their science.   You are dead on correct about glass....... and everthing else you've said.  ( I teach ceramic chemistry and kiln design at the college level..... so kind of a "tech weenie" also.  Wink )

I find it sort of "fun" that Si is the basis for both my profession.... and my hobby  Grin.

And ggggeeeeeeezzzzzzeeeeeeeee.... are we ever getting way off the topic of flight simming.

best,

...................john
 

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Reply #38 - Aug 22nd, 2004 at 4:22pm

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Quote:
You will not see the ice forming on the wings or structure (unless you have Bill Lyons Apache.  His is the only aircraft I have seen that models icing).


Codered,

This is a very interestin thread for me.  If this can be done for this aircraft....... can some sort of "add on" be developed to cause ice to form visually on other aircraft?

I wonder if this is reasonably possible to do?

best,

..................john
 

... ...Intel i7 960 quad 3.2G LGA 1366, Asus P6X58D Premium, 750W Corsair, 6 gig 1600 DDR3, Spinpoint 1TB 7200 HD, Caviar 500G 7200 HD, GTX275 1280M,  Logitec Z640, Win7 Pro 64b, CH Products yoke, pedals + throttle quad, simpit
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Reply #39 - Aug 22nd, 2004 at 6:14pm

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I have to admit that everytime I come here I learn something new, or at the least get my memory jogged a bit.
This did turn into a interesting and informative topic!

And I agree if icing can be done on one flight sim model why hasn't it been incorporated on others? Or is it just that not many really care about that aspect of flying? Which they should it is something that can be incountered at anytime of year in any kind of weather! and I don't have any stats but I would guess is probably the most common incident that happens while flying, besides turbulance.
 
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Reply #40 - Aug 22nd, 2004 at 7:36pm

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Wow, I never knew that hydrogen is a metal, not that it makes alot of difference anyway.

 
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Reply #41 - Aug 23rd, 2004 at 11:17am

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I have not looked very close at the Bill Lyon's Apache, but I would think maybe it is a panel gauge of somekind that react to when there is icing present in the clouds.  Once the pitot heat is turned on the ice goes away.

Perhaps someone in the aircraft development forum might know something about how this can be done. Grin
 

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Reply #42 - Aug 23rd, 2004 at 3:00pm

elkinallen   Offline
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I have been in icing. It is quite something. I have flown GA aircraft in all conditions and icing is the most of the most.

I don't see why Icing cannot be modeled visualy.  Afterall, SWOTL back in 1990 modeled the visual accumulation of 'oil' spray on the windscreen.

All is a fluid?  All is a solid?   When you get right down to it, all is a GAS!  Molecular, atoms, nucleus and such.
 
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