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Battle of Britain. (Read 457 times)
Jul 5
th
, 2004 at 1:56pm
eno
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I watched an interesting programme on ITV (Independant television UK) last night about how close Britain came to being Invaded in 1940. Less than 7 days was the FACT not the estimate. All that I can say is thank God for the RAF.
S-day (The German invasion plan was called Operation Sealion.) as it was called by the Germans was the 15th Sept 1940 but because of the efforts of the RAF keeping the Luftwaffe under control over the skys of Southern England, this date was posponed by a week. As we all know now the RAF kept the Germans under control and maintained Air Superiority.
Hitler posponed the Invasion indefinately and only abandoned the plans completely a few weeks before D-Day.
I've just tried, without success, any links to this programme on the ITV website
cheers
eno
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Reply #1 -
Jul 5
th
, 2004 at 2:52pm
Hagar
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Hi Eno. I would have watched this programme if I'd known about it. I would be interested to know who was responsible for it. Unfortunately some "historians" have their own agenda & do not let the facts interfere in these so-called documentaries.
This subject has been discussed at length many times over the years & on this forum. Unless any new facts have emerged, most historians agree that despite what was thought at the time, Hitler had never seriously considered invading Britain. He hoped to persuade the British government to sign a non-aggression treaty. This is not so far-fetched as it might sound today. Many senior politicians were sympathetic & would have done so had it not been for one man - Winston Churchill. Operation Seelöwe (Sealion) was badly planned & seriously flawed. It did not stand much chance of success right from the outset. I've come to believe that the whole thing might well have been an elaborate bluff.
PS. I mean no disrespect to the RAF or the brave BoB pilots. They have always been my heroes & always will be.
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Reply #2 -
Jul 5
th
, 2004 at 3:32pm
HawkerTempest5
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I watched this myself last night and I have to say I'm not too sure what to make of it. It was entertaining but I'm not sure just how accurate it was. One of the eye whitness accounts came from a novel written by the lady in question. Lots of scenes from the BoB movie including a shot of a MkXIV in 1940 colours that I can't remember seeing in the film, must have been an out take. I bet Fighter Command wished they had all those MkIXs ans XIVs in July 1940
Interesting, yes and I'm sure based on some truth, but I agree with Hagar's thoughts on the German invasion plans.
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Reply #3 -
Jul 5
th
, 2004 at 6:50pm
4_Series_Scania
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Ditto to the above sentiment.
I watched the program last night, the anouncment of the Surrender made my blood run cold......
I thank God that Hitler was the main strategist in the Reich, imagine what
could
have happened.......
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Reply #4 -
Jul 5
th
, 2004 at 7:09pm
Scorpiоn
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Didn't Hitler say Britain and France were not Germany's true enemies, that it was the Soviets that truly threatened Germany?
The Devil's Advocate.
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Reply #5 -
Jul 5
th
, 2004 at 7:25pm
Hagar
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Didn't Hitler say Britain and France were not Germany's true enemies, that it was the Soviets that truly threatened Germany?
From what I've read, Hitler admired the British Empire. What he had hoped for was that Britain would allow him to expand Germany in a similar way without interfering. Many of the senior politicians in the British War Cabinet would have been only too willing to go along with this. I believe we have one man to thank for saving us from going down this dubious path. Winston Churchill. Whatever you might think about him he hated Hitler & all he stood for.
I found this site which gives the relevant facts as I see them.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Sealion
This is a sobering thought.
Quote:
A mass invasion by sea however, may not have been necessary. In British wartime cabinet documents released in 1998, it was revealed that after the failure of the British Expeditionary Force in France and its evacuation at Dunkirk, Winston Churchill had lost support in the cabinet and in Parliament. Had the Royal Air Force been defeated by the Luftwaffe, Churchill would have been replaced as Prime Minister by Foreign Secretary Lord Halifax, who was known to be in favour of peace negotiations with Germany rather than face a civilian bloodbath on British soil.
This is a transcript of the top secret orders for Operation Seelöwe - Directive No. 16. Note the date.
http://www.adolfhitler.ws/lib/proc/direct16.html
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Reply #6 -
Jul 6
th
, 2004 at 1:04am
Scorpiоn
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Interesting read Hagar, thanks for the links.
Didn't know that bit about Churchill's near unemployment.
Would it be safe to say then, that had the Luftwaffe continued it's assault on the RAF, Germany might've very well never had to have dealt with a Western front? In the forseeable future, at least.
The Devil's Advocate.
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Jul 6
th
, 2004 at 10:53am
Hagar
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Hi Scorp. As I was born & still live right in the middle of the likely invasion area I've been interested in this subject for most of my life. There are many myths about the BoB & Operation Seelöwe that were believed to be fact until quite recently. I certainly had no reason to doubt them until top secret documents were declassified at various times over the last few years. Unfortunately, from what Eno & Tempest are saying, the author of this "documentary" is simply propagating the old myths without looking at the latest facts. I try to read all the available accounts & make up my own mind. It might hurt sometimes but I'm only interested in uncovering the truth.
I have come to believe that it's quite possible that Britain would have signed some sort of treaty with Hitler had RAF Fighter Command failed to deliver in the summer of 1940. Churchill was not popular & had been seen as a warmonger by most people until they finally had to accept that he was right & we deperately needed him. The British government had seen how easily the Wehrmacht had stormed through most of Western Europe virtually unopposed & many senior politicians genuinely believed that we would have been powerless to stop them. In fact some were sympathetic to Hitler which he was well aware of. If Churchill had been sacked & a treaty signed the way would have been open to attack the Soviet Union which I believe was his main objective. I'm not sure how the general public would have taken to what would have been seen as a surrender. It's quite possible they would have been relieved but I can't say how they would have felt about it. You have to remember that it was not just Britain but the whole British Empire that was involved. I suspect that other parts of the Empire like Australia, Canada & New Zealand might not have stood by & allowed this to happen but I have no idea what they could have done about it. I doubt that we will ever know the answer. Fascinating ain't it.
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Reply #8 -
Jul 6
th
, 2004 at 11:55am
Exploder
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Without one of the most important navigation error in history it would have turned out your way,Doug.
Stupid bomber pilots...
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Reply #9 -
Jul 6
th
, 2004 at 1:12pm
Hagar
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Without one of the most important navigation error in history it would have turned out your way,Doug.
Stupid bomber pilots...
Maybe Björn. I'm not convinced of the truth behind that particular story. It might be another one of those myths.
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Reply #10 -
Jul 6
th
, 2004 at 1:58pm
Woodlouse2002
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I think there is a fair bit on truth in that story. I recall reading somewhere that the crew of the Bomber were court marshalled as a result of their blunder.
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Jul 6
th
, 2004 at 8:43pm
Scorpiоn
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Wow. I'm not sure what more there is to say but that.
Sure is fascinating to imagine what could've happened, but aren't we fortunate not to know.
I think I said this before, but I watched a program that detailed a German invasion of Britain (But focused mostly on Churchill's guerillas), and becasue there was no Western air war, Barbarossa went ahead much smoothly, and eventually succeeded. Later on, the Cold War is played out by America and Germany, and a Nazi flag is planted on the moon before America, since, historically some or one of NASA's top engineers never "chose" to work for NASA after Germany's defeat.
Although this "history" line still works with a peace with Britain. Interesting.
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Jul 7
th
, 2004 at 4:45am
Hagar
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Sure is fascinating to imagine what could've happened
It is fascinating but can only ever be speculation. Most people seem to forget that nothing is as clearcut as it looks & the upredictable often spoils the best laid plans.
Theorists seem to make the mistake of looking at things from a modern day viewpoint. It might be difficult for the younger generations to imagine but almost anything you can think of was different 60 years ago. This includes morals, loyalty, beliefs & the way people thought & lived their lives. Ordinary people generally accepted what they were told without question if they thought it helped the war effort. Many who were there at the time still believe what they were told which is the reason these myths survive. This, & fading memories, is what makes unearthing the truth much more difficult.
In 1940s Britain it was believed by even the most senior politicians that invasion was imminent. All the road signs & nameboards on railway stations had been removed by government order. It was impossible to obtain a road map & illegal to own one. Strangers were treated with suspicion which made things very difficult for genuine travellers, even servicemen & women posted to a new unit. Spies, or fifth columnists as they were then called, were hiding behind every tree so you would be careful what you discussed even with close friends & family. Many people working on top secret projects took those secrets to the grave when they died many decades later. Everyone was on the lookout for German parachutists. Propaganda, combined with government censorship, was an even more powerful tool than it is today. It was effective as there were no TV reporters behind enemy lines reporting their every move round the clock as there are now. Propaganda was used by both sides on their own people as well as the enemy but Goebbels had made it into an art form & was in a class of his own.
I'm now used to everything I once believed in being disproved when new facts come to light. This no longer upsets me but I take it all with a pinch of salt these days. Maybe this is what made me the old cynic I am.
<edit typos>
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Last Edit: Jul 7
th
, 2004 at 8:23am by Hagar
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Reply #13 -
Jul 7
th
, 2004 at 8:02am
Felix/FFDS
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One also tends to forget that in the mid-thirties there was a lot of anti-semitism as well, that to a certain point helped "set" a mindset that "Hitler wasn't all that bad" among certain people.
Note that, just as the US had the German-American "Bund", Britain had the British UNion of Fascists (BUF) modelled after Mussolini fascism, and at a point, backed by notable people, and the
Daily Mirror
. So, it wasn't a people all united in the early days of the war (Or "Why go to war over Poland?")
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Reply #14 -
Jul 7
th
, 2004 at 8:25pm
Scorpiоn
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Quote:
It is fascinating but can only ever be speculation. Most people seem to forget that nothing is as clearcut as it looks & the upredictable often spoils the best laid plans.
Theorists seem to make the mistake of looking at things from a modern day viewpoint. It might be difficult for the younger generations to imagine but almost anything you can think of was different 60 years ago. This includes morals, loyalty, beliefs & the way people thought & lived their lives. Ordinary people generally accepted what they were told without question if they thought it helped the war effort. Many who were there at the time still believe what they were told which is the reason these myths survive. This, & fading memories, is what makes unearthing the truth much more difficult.
Very true. I know I can't possibly imagine what it was like to live back then, and I make no claim to have an authoritave opinion any any such matters, but usually when I diverge from "agreed" history, I do so mainly for my own amusement. Contrary to my commonly bemused expression, I do actually find just sitting back and letting the mind imagine quite entertaining. And with my limited knowledge of German, and can produce some fairly convincing "movies" in my mind. If my imagination produces something remotely possible, I'm quite satisfied with it, since as you stated, reality rarely goes to plan.
And although it's impossible to understand, that's what keeps me coming back to World War II: It's one thing to know, it's another to understand.
The Devil's Advocate.
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Jul 8
th
, 2004 at 9:44am
Hagar
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Hi Scorp. Please don't think that I'm trying to set myself up as some sort of authority on this or any other subject. I'm merely expressing my opinion. My passionate interest in WWII history, specifically the BoB, makes me a tad over-enthusiastic at times.
It's very interesting to speculate on what might have happened if any major event in history had been changed in some way. I'm all for it providing that the authors of novels or films based on these ideas make it clear that this is fiction. Too often we see these so-called documentaries & feature films that bear very little relation to the truth. People watching them without knowing the true history tend to believe what's shown in the film. This is what annoys & upsets me about programmes like the one Eno mentioned.
As you seem to have a rich imagination it might be worth studying what life was like for ordinary people living in Britain in 1940. This would make your "movies" even more convincing.
I don't know if it's available where you are but I was given a very interesting little book named Aces, Erks & Backroom Boys. This would give you some idea of what life was like for many of these ordinary people. It's well worth a read. IMHO
http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0304359270/wwwlink-software-21/202-8049...
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Reply #16 -
Jul 8
th
, 2004 at 11:54am
Scorpiоn
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Don't get me wrong Hagar, I'm not trying to insinuate anything, I'm just trying to say
I
don't claim to understand war, or for that matter, understand what went through the minds of the air and ground warriors on either side, although that's what I always strive to do.
You needn't tell me about bias, I take my federally funded school education with a grain of salt. I saw the flaws in it's World War II curriculum, and corrected my teacher numerous times. The success of Kamikazes for example.
I can only imagine what these privately funded (as I imagine they are) "documentaries" tell people.
I'm not bound to get the book as my acute interest in the Pacific air war and cash won't permit, but now I have grown more interested in daily life during the Blitz on Britania, so I shall do some light research...
Convesely, it seems all I've researched lately is the Luftwaffe, specifically the Ju 87, rather than the IJN or the USAAF. Go figure.
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Reply #17 -
Jul 25
th
, 2004 at 3:52am
Professor Brensec
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I was surprised to see this one mentioned again, so soon. (Even if it hasn't been posted in for a couple of weeks........
)
As has been said, there are many 'accepted' theories and orders of events that there may well be more to than meets the eye.
The 'Invasion' (Sealowe), was merely a ruse, in my opinion. There were so many 'obvious' flaws in the plan (not the least of which, was the total lack of suitable landing craft and troop carriers).
In fact, I watched a History channel Doco the other week which featured a 'witness' (German soldier in charge of a work gang who were charged with cutting the bow off the 'river barges' to fit the 'drop bridge'). He said that they all said they would desert before trying to cross the channel in one of these things.
But I digress. Basically, as Hagar has said, there is pretty much an accepted opinion these days that there was really no serious 'invasion' in the offing.
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Reply #18 -
Sep 12
th
, 2004 at 4:37am
mosquito633
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The common belief that i have heard is that there was no real serious threat to England.. If u look at its geographical position it would just be murder to send ships across the channel with the RAF still around..But this makes me ask. Why did Germany decide to call a halt to stop the bombing of England.. I can safely say in heinsite that the Brits were running terribly low on aircraft. But surely the pilots should have noticed a lack of fighters up there? So why was the bombing stopped?
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Reply #19 -
Sep 12
th
, 2004 at 5:17am
Professor Brensec
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G'Day, Mozzie. Welcome.
The Brits (and many Australians, Kiwis, Canadians, Poles, Czechs, French, and even some Yanks), were not so much short of fighters, but more so, trained pilots (especially battle experienced ones).
But the Germans were also in the same boat. Their fighter forces had basically been unable to stop the molestation of their bombers. This was obvious in the loss figures. Even a 'stalemate' was unacceptable given the German crew losses.
Then, once the RAF received it's 'accidental' reprieve on Sept 7th (my birthday), and the bombing was switched to the cities rather than the pressure being kept up on Fighter bases, the Battle was lost. The germans handed the skies back to Fighter Command and that was that.
Had the German attacks on the Airfields continued for even just a couple more weeks, Fighter Command may well have been crippled. But it didn't happen, did it??
No amount of continued bombing would have cleared the skies of the RAF. And, as you say, it was suicide to attempt an invasion without total air supremacy, in that area (although we all agree, I think, that there was really no serious invasion intended).
The Allies knew this also in 1944. Their demonstration of 'TOTAL' air supremacy showed just exactly HOW effective and deadly that advantage can be (e.g. The Falaise Gap, to mention just one total anihilation of ground forces, due to Air supremacy).
It certainly was a very busy and important 4 months or so. But fate, or better planes, or better pilots, or luck or all these, decide the outcome.
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Reply #20 -
Sep 12
th
, 2004 at 6:07am
Hagar
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Quote:
The common belief that i have heard is that there was no real serious threat to England.. If u look at its geographical position it would just be murder to send ships across the channel with the RAF still around..
As I mentioned earlier, with the benefit of hindsight I have come to believe that Hitler expected Britain to sue for peace. A non-aggression pact with Britain would effectively remove opposition from the whole British Empire & leave him free to attack Soviet Russia which had always been his main objective. I could be wrong but it's quite possible that Operation Seelowe was an elaborate bluff to convince the doubters. The German generals had no previous experience of waterborne invasion & didn't fully appreciate the difficulties involved. Admiral Raeder had insisted on aerial superiority before he would commit the Navy & Goering had promised the Luftwaffe could take care of it. This explains the significance of the Battle of Britain. Although the Royal Navy was the most powerful in the world the British Army was in tatters with most of its equipment left behind on the beaches of Dunkirk. Once RAF Fighter Command was taken out of the picture Britain would be virtually defenceless. Whether Operation Seelowe was practical or not, there is no doubt that everyone in Britain at the time, including the government, believed that invasion was imminent. It was generally believed that this invasion would come from the air, not by sea.
Quote:
But this makes me ask. Why did Germany decide to call a halt to stop the bombing of England.. I can safely say in heinsite that the Brits were running terribly low on aircraft. But surely the pilots should have noticed a lack of fighters up there? So why was the bombing stopped?
By coincidence the RAF "Big Wing" tactics were first tried on September 7th 1940, the same day as the first daylight raid on London. This brought the fighters of 12 Group based north of the River Thames into the picture. The Luftwaffe pilots were shocked to find more fighters than ever & suffered severe losses. The bombing did not stop but tactics were changed from daylight raids on airfields & RADAR stations to night bombing of cities - the start of the "London Blitz". Legend has it that this was in retaliation for a token raid on Berlin. It's a nice story but I suspect it was for the same reasons that RAF Bomber Command went over to night bombing. The losses suffered by the Luftwaffe in daylight operations being unsustainable.
http://www.museumoflondon.org.uk/MOLsite/exhibits/blitz/bigstory.html
It's often been suggested that if the Luftwaffe had continued attacking airfields instead of directing its attention to London & other cities the story might well have been different.
Quote:
The London Blitz lasted from 7 September 1940 until 11 May 1941
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Reply #21 -
Sep 13
th
, 2004 at 12:23am
Professor Brensec
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Thanks Hagar.
Although at times we may differ on some small aspect in a specific issue, again, it would seem we are in complete agreement.
Alaso, I reviewed your earlier post regarding the political and 'personal' attitudes in Britain at the time towards the Nazis and more specifically Hitler. I know that younger people these days and certainly anyone with the hindsight that was available in 1945, would be abhorred (if not surprised) to find that there was much 'support' for what the Germans were doing on the mainland, especially in the so called 'aristocracy' and the upper class.
Churchill was very much 'on the outer' with many very influential people, until it was proven that the Nazis could not be taken at their word and that Hitler was the meglomaniac that he turned out to be.
I understand how many these days would be hesitant to admit or to agree with the fact that there were many influential and respected Brits that would have had no problem at all in 'shaking hands' with the Nazis.
I think, in the scheme of things, although Churchill is not loved and respected in Australia with the same passion and fervour that he is in Britain, he was most certainly very much responsible for the holding out of Britain against Naziism and their eventual defeat. Had Britain not been available to the US as a build up and 'jump off' point for invasion, the road to Germany would have been a much longer and harder one.
Although, had the British decided not to resist the Nazis, would the US even have been involved in the European theatre? My guess is: not until they themselves had been directly threatened by the Nazis. They would have been to committed to the Pacific war (which I beileve would have gone ahead without the European situation as it was), to have been bothered with Europe if Britain had not been in need of assistance.
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Reply #22 -
Sep 13
th
, 2004 at 1:42pm
Woodlouse2002
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Although, had the British decided not to resist the Nazis, would the US even have been involved in the European theatre?
Definately not. Even after Britain resisted America didn't get involved because they were so sure that gallant England was doomed to losing. It took Pearl Harbour and a declaration of war by Hitler to get the US involved.
Woodlouse2002 PITA and BAR!!!!!!!!&&&&Our Sovereign Lord the King chargeth and commandeth all persons, being assembled, immediately to disperse themselves, and peaceably to depart to their habitations, or to their lawful business, upon the pains contained in the Act made in the first year of King George the First for preventing tumults and riotous assemblies. God Save the King.&&&&Viva la revolution!
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Reply #23 -
Sep 13
th
, 2004 at 6:11pm
Professor Brensec
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Quote:
Definately not. Even after Britain resisted America didn't get involved because they were so sure that gallant England was doomed to losing. It took Pearl Harbour and a declaration of war by Hitler to get the US involved.
Quite so. Had the Brits made peace (or had to surrender), I expect that the US would have maintained it's Isolationist policies regardless of how keen Roosevelt was to help the Brits.
Even when the Japanese attacked Pearl, there would have been no reason for the US to become involved in Europe, unless it was helping the Russians. Maybe they could have gotten invloved that way.
They were supplying the Russians with all kinds of stuff, but was this from July to December 1941 (when the US was still neutral), or did they start supplying Russia after Hitler declared war.
Also, I believe Hitler would still have been 'oblibged' to declare war against the US after the Japanese, because of the terms of the Tripartite Pact (although being a non-agression pact, did it mean he was obliged to?).
Some interesting questions I suppose.
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