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ILS problems in the Lear Jet 45 (Read 473 times)
May 29th, 2004 at 3:38pm

Pc-Shark   Offline
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My ILS system works in the Lear Jet 45 but this is what it does, I am about 40 miles away from the airport and I am already set up basicly heading right at the rwy then when I get aprox. 20 miles out and the ILS Freq. picks up and I turn on the approuch hold switch and my ILS indicater shows just about lined up when all that needs to be done is just a small turn to become aligned with the glide scope then the auto pilot starts turning sharp and keeps missing the glide scope bouncing back and forth till I get real close to the rwy then it lines me up but by that time I am to close and I over shoot the rwy. why would the Lear Jet 45 ILS approuch be messing up like that?
 

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Reply #1 - May 29th, 2004 at 6:01pm

tsunami_KNUW   Offline
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Try turning the autopilot off and land manually Wink I think what's happening is your aircraft is tuned in to fly to a certain VOR station and when you fly over it before you land, the autopilot turns you around to get back to the VOR station. I'm a novice when it comes to VOR so I'm probably wrong but try turning AP off. Heavy winds can be another factor.
 

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Reply #2 - May 29th, 2004 at 7:37pm

nickle   Offline
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Make sure you intercept the GS from below.  You can be far enough out, say 20 mi, but still be above the GS.  Check that the GS bug is above the center of the ADI.
 
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Reply #3 - May 29th, 2004 at 7:41pm

YodaNYC   Offline
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First, you should not be trying to line up with the runway at 40 miles out.  For the best approach, you should come into the approach at a 30 degree angle to the final approach course (this will most likely be 10 miles from the runway).  For instance, if the final approach is 40 degrees, enter from a heading of 70 degrees.  If using the autopilot (which it appears you are) to fly the approach, the plane will make a smooth left turn toward the runway.

Also, make sure that you establish on the glideslope from the proper altitude.  A quick check of the approach plate for the airport will show you the appropriate altitude for the outer and middle markers.  Too high and you'll miss the runway altogether.

I fly 737's and 777's so have not experienced your particular issue.
 
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Reply #4 - May 29th, 2004 at 9:38pm

Nexus   Offline
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Hey Yoda, what if the runway is actually straight ahead from his descent point. Doesn't make sence to create a route offset and then do an intercept turn?  Smiley

And some info regarding the standard 30 degree intercept angle:
The 30 degree angle stuff is a thing of "old" days and really can be disregarded by the new generation jets.
The old autopilots could not capture the LOC at angles greater than some 30 degrees.  I'm citing a swedish DC9 pilot

"30 degree intercept is standard, older autopilots (like the DC9) need this. In modern aircrafts, the autosystem will normally be able to intercept at an angel twice as big."

the 737 (hey what else  Grin ) can fly an automated procedure turn, FMC will construct predicted paths based on geometric limitation of the turn (FMC assumes 170KIAS and current wind condition), Now that's something the DC9's could just dream of to do  Grin
Take a look at many approach charts they have steeper turns than 30degrees   8)

But in FS I agree with you, the autopilot handles the LOC better with 30degree intercept than say a 45 Smiley

Anyways capture the GS from below, like Nickle said. The ATC usually does a job when it comes to give you the proper altitude for localizer intercepts. Then just maintain that altitude until the 'diamond' starts moving downwards to the center of the vertical scale.

Personally I never fly the Lears so I can't give you any in-depth advices though  Smiley
 
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Reply #5 - May 29th, 2004 at 9:59pm

YodaNYC   Offline
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Agree with you on all that regarding real world flying.

Problem is FS, as you pointed, is that the system doesn't react well to larger turns.  I find that the plane often overturns du to the steep bank angle and then has to revor back to the proper approach path.
 
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Reply #6 - May 29th, 2004 at 11:49pm

Flapsup   Offline
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You can intercept the ILS from the last vector that ATI and gives you but you need to be established on autopilot altitude and heading. Do not switch altitude off before switching to APP. Also make sure you have set the ILS frequency into NAV1 and not a VOR frquency. Also chec to be sure you have the NAV/GPS switch set to NAV. The aircraft will follow the glideslope down and align with the runway. on Short final get off autothrottle and establish your approach speed manually. Remember that in FS9, landing speed is just that LANDING SPEED AT TOUCHDOWN not a mile out. Many of the aircraft will loose altitude rapidly if you get down to that speed too early. Have spoilers and auto brakes armed and switchoff the autopilot at about 50 feet, retard throttle, flair and brake and apply thrust reversers if necessary. If you remembered to lower the gear you should have a smooth landing. By the way ILS approaches from 15 miles or so are the norm for FS9 and in real life they allow you to get everything accomplished before you reach the airfield. Look at the article on good approaches in this months Flying Magazine.
 
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Reply #7 - May 30th, 2004 at 11:45am

nickle   Offline
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If the [autopilot] isn't satisfactory, in the aircraft config file you can dampen A/P oscillations by inserting a value in nav_derivative_control and boundry.  For starters use the same value as the integrator settings.

nav_proportional_control=11.00
nav_integrator_control=0.20
nav_derivative_control=0.00
nav_integrator_boundary=2.50
nav_derivative_boundary=0.00
 
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Reply #8 - May 30th, 2004 at 7:16pm

Billerator   Offline
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Yeah I suspect the problem was that you were not capturing the GS from below.
This will cause the AP to freak out ( sometimes ) and it will not land you on the runway.
( I found that out the hard way  Tongue )


 
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Reply #9 - Jun 5th, 2004 at 12:19am

Pc-Shark   Offline
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Quote:
Yeah I suspect the problem was that you were not capturing the GS from below.
This will cause the AP to freak out ( sometimes ) and it will not land you on the runway.
( I found that out the hard way  Tongue )




I found out the hard way befor I wrote this post. It just gets real aggervating when things just don't go right..
 

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Reply #10 - Jun 6th, 2004 at 12:38pm

nochus   Offline
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If the approach speed is too high, then the AP cannot catch up with the ILS fast enough.

Try it with high speeds and low speeds and you will undersatand AP versus speed versus ILS sensitivity behaviour, on any aircraft.

Good luck
 
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Reply #11 - Jun 6th, 2004 at 12:51pm

nickle   Offline
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Lear 45 is a problem due to speed control on approach.
Download fuel to 25 percent.
Set 125kts A/S control.
Be dirty at 12 mi  ILS with G and some flap.
Full flap prior to GS.
Deploy spoilers for speed control on GS.
Anticipate need for some power in close with spoilers deployed.
POC
 
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