Simviation Forum - What Mk?

May 28^th, 2004 at 7:36pm

xFLAMESx Offline
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Hey guys, who knows what Mk these two beauties are?

Ozzy - keep quiet for a while Grin

Thanx. Carl

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Reply #1 - May 28^th, 2004 at 9:33pm

Rifleman Offline
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......first one is a MK IXc
........second one is a Mk Vc

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Reply #2 - May 28^th, 2004 at 9:39pm

Felix/FFDS Offline
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Both are Spitfires L.F. Mk IXc ?

Felix/FFDS

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Reply #3 - May 29^th, 2004 at 5:54am

ozzy72 Offline
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Okay I won't say anything, but I can even tell you who owns them Shocked

There are two types of aeroplane, Spitfires and everything else that wishes it was a Spitfire!

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Reply #4 - May 29^th, 2004 at 7:30am

HawkerTempest5 Offline
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The first one is LF MkIXc MK732 of the Dutch Spitfire Flight. It is a real D-Day veteran, serving with 485 (New Zealand) squadron and sharing the second JU88 destroyed on D-DAy with ML407.
The second is LF IXe ML417, formally of the Fighter Collection based at Duxford. It served with 195 (Canadian) Squadron at Kenley in 1944 and has a 109 and one shared to its credit. It is currently flying in the US.

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Reply #5 - May 29^th, 2004 at 8:11am

xFLAMESx Offline
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It looks like Tempest5 knows his stuff !
(Looks like there might be a challenger to Ozzy's crown)
Alright Oz, was he right about their history?

Thanx. Carl

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Reply #6 - May 29^th, 2004 at 10:22am

Rifleman Offline
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" Full size A/C are just
overgrown models ! "
Tropical island in the Pacific

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My info on the second one was erroneous and ammemded now......in my haste, I read something wrong Roll Eyes

Quote:

Built by Vickers-Armstrong at Castle Bromwich early 1944. To 6 MU April 28, passed to 84 Support Group Unit May 30. Allocated to 443 (RCAF) ‘Hornet’ Sqn. at Ford, Sussex June 2, coded 21-T. It became one of the first Allied aircraft to land on French soil after D-Day, by late June was based at St.Croix-sur-Mer, Normandy, June 26 claimed Fw 190 damaged/probable over Normandy. Two Bf 109’s destroyed September 29, before being damaged by flak. After repair it was issued to 442 ‘Caribou’, 401‘Ram’ and 441 Sqns. To 29 MU August 1945 and stored. Sold back to Vickers-Armstrong, South Marston, October 31, 1946, converted to two seat trainer for Indian Air Force by October 1948, tested as G-15-11, delivered to IAF and became HS453.

In IAF Museum, Palam, 1967; bought by Senator Norman E.Garr in April 1971. Arrived Charleston March 15, 1972, stored New Orleans until November 1972, sent to Darrel Skurich, Fort Collins, Colorado for restoration but little done before being traded to Stephen Grey and freighted to UK. Restored by PPS at Booker, registered G-BJSG January 29, 1981, flew February 10, 1984. Currently painted in D-DAY markings with 443 Sqn. codes 21-T and based at Duxford.
On 3rd May 1998, at the Duxford Spitfire Airshow, ML417 was in the flypast of the formation of 16 Spitfires, it formed Red section with TE566, ML407 and BM597. This was the biggest since WWII.

On July 8, 2001 ML417 was one of eight Spitfires taking part at the ‘Flying Legends’ Airshow, Duxford and also took part in the Airshow at Duxford on September 8, 2001. On December 10, 2001 ML417 left Duxford via Southampton Docks for the U.S.A. It was due to arrive at Houston, Texas on December 26.

On January 17, 2002 ML417 now registered as N2TF, took up residence at The Air Museum ‘Planes of Fame’ Chino Airport, California with the Friedkin Family Chino Warbirds Collection its new owners. It joins Hawker Sea Hurricane X AE977 also recently bought in the UK.
ML417 took part in the Museums annual airshow entitled ‘United We Stood, United We Stand’ Airshow 2002 over the weekend of May 18-19, Stephen Grey came all the way from Duxford to demonstrate how to perform an aerobatic display in Spitfire Mk.IX ML417

I now stand corrected !

Info on the first image can be verified here........

http://www.angelfire.com/hi5/spitfiremk2a/my-history-mk732.html

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Reply #7 - May 29^th, 2004 at 11:22am

ozzy72 Offline
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Don't mess with Roger (Hawker) he knows more about warbirds than even I!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I can only just about whip him on Merlin engined Spits, he is a Griffon-man, but otherwise the guy is God on warbirds Wink

Mark

There are two types of aeroplane, Spitfires and everything else that wishes it was a Spitfire!

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Reply #8 - May 29^th, 2004 at 12:27pm

xFLAMESx Offline
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At least I know where to look for any info on Spit's

OH OH OH OH - I now have ALMOST every Merlin-Engined Spitfire in CFS.
Just thought i'd tell ya Grin

Thanx. Carl

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Reply #9 - May 29^th, 2004 at 4:26pm

Woodlouse2002 Offline
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I'm going to make an arse of myself now by pointing out that the second Spit appears to have a Griffon engine and a MkXIV tail.

I'm not saying that Tempest is wrong, but can someone explain why this is?

Woodlouse2002 PITA and BAR!!!!!!!!&&&&Our Sovereign Lord the King chargeth and commandeth all persons, being assembled, immediately to disperse themselves, and peaceably to depart to their habitations, or to their lawful business, upon the pains contained in the Act made in the first year of King George the First for preventing tumults and riotous assemblies. God Save the King.&&&&Viva la revolution!

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Reply #10 - May 29^th, 2004 at 4:58pm

Hagar Offline
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They're both Merlins. If you check out the prop blades they're both the same rotation - clockwise as viewed from the cockpit. The Griffon rotates in the opposite direction.

You're right about the fin & rudder though.

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Reply #11 - May 29^th, 2004 at 5:10pm

C Offline
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Yep, both merlins, I don't now how the second pic looks like a Griffon at all. Some IXs and XVIs had the "pointy" rudder fitted, in fact I think all XVIs did (HT5 may verify this dubious assumption of mine). I believe it was first fitted to the Mk VIII or VII. It's considerably smaller in chord to the broad chord (and also pointy) rudder of the XIV, XVII, XVIII and XIX etc blah blah onwards.

I believe the BBMFs IX MK356 has just been refitted with a pointy one similiar to ML417 to replace the rounded one (such as on MK732), and being in the same sqn markings as ML417 (as 21-V) now looks almost identical. Shame they'e on opposite sides of the atlantic now...

Charlie

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Reply #12 - May 29^th, 2004 at 5:25pm

HawkerTempest5 Offline
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The pointed tail was fitted to most later MkIXs all MkVIIIs and most MkXVIs. The Griffon engined MkXII had a MkVIII tail and rudder (being based upon either a MkV-fixed tail wheel models, or a MkVIII-retractable tail wheel models) but all other production Griffon Spits had a much larger fin and rudder fitted.
You can always spot a Griffon spit by the shape of the nose. It is much longer with a much bigger prop spinner and two very large rocker cover bulges running along the top of the exhaust stack. All but the MkXII and MkXV had a five bladed rotol or six bladed contra prop.
Quote:

I believe the BBMFs IX MK356 has just been refitted with a pointy one similiar to ML417 to replace the rounded one (such as on MK732), and being in the same sqn markings as ML417 (as 21-V) now looks almost identical. Shame they'e on opposite sides of the atlantic now...

Charlie

That's right Charlie pal, they replaced the standard rudder with one from the two MkXVIs that BBMF have stashed away in the back of the hanger. I saw both these "21" Spits side by side at Duxford a few years back and it is a shame that TFC decided to sell it on. The UK Spitfire population gets a bit smaller every year and I hear rumors that at least one more will be crossing the pond this year. Very sad Cry

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Reply #13 - May 29^th, 2004 at 6:08pm

HawkerTempest5 Offline
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These should give you an idea about rudders and noses Wink

Three types of tails. Left forground is the standard rudder, behind is the pointed rudder and on the right the larger fin and rudder as fitted to Griffon types.

Noses. On the left is the Griffon nose of a MkXIV and on the right a Merlin nose on a MkV. The MkIX had a longer nose to take the twin stage super charger but the profile is about the same. You can clearly see (even on my very dusty old model Wink

) the larger nose and rocker cover bulges on the Griffon nose.
Hope that helps.

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Reply #14 - May 29^th, 2004 at 11:22pm

Felix/FFDS Offline
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Late production Mk. IX were also made with the cutdown fuselage and teardrop canopy, like the Mk. XVI (Mk. IX with the US Packard-Merlin 266)

Felix/FFDS

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Reply #15 - Jun 1^st, 2004 at 9:59am

Woodlouse2002 Offline
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I think that ML417 is dressed as a Griffon spit in that photo. You can see the rocker cover bulges that shouldn't be there on a MkIX.

Woodlouse2002 PITA and BAR!!!!!!!!&&&&Our Sovereign Lord the King chargeth and commandeth all persons, being assembled, immediately to disperse themselves, and peaceably to depart to their habitations, or to their lawful business, upon the pains contained in the Act made in the first year of King George the First for preventing tumults and riotous assemblies. God Save the King.&&&&Viva la revolution!

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Reply #16 - Jun 1^st, 2004 at 12:58pm

HawkerTempest5 Offline
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Woody pal, I'm not sure where you can see Griffon style bulges on that photo pal ??? I agree that the nose on ML417 looks a bit different from the nose in the first photo but I'm sure it's just the angle. I've seen ML417 twenty or thirty times and it has always looked like that.
One explanation however is that ML417 may have a Packard Merlin fitted or have the cowl from a MkXVI. The nose profile of the MkXVI was just slightly different form the MkIX due to small differences between the 60 series Merlin and the Packard V1650.

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Reply #17 - Jun 1^st, 2004 at 1:18pm

ozzy72 Offline
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Its just the angle. ML417 had the Mosquito engine she was running removed when they did her big rebuild in the early 90's, she is now running a Merlin 60 Wink

Oh and the nose is the original I believe, its just the angle of the shot and the light I think is distorting things a tad.

Mark

There are two types of aeroplane, Spitfires and everything else that wishes it was a Spitfire!

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Reply #18 - Jun 1^st, 2004 at 6:58pm

Woodlouse2002 Offline
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I have outlined what I am speaking of.
The original picture.

Picture with the bulge on the engine cowl outlined.

I really do think that ML417 is in drag for that pic.

Woodlouse2002 PITA and BAR!!!!!!!!&&&&Our Sovereign Lord the King chargeth and commandeth all persons, being assembled, immediately to disperse themselves, and peaceably to depart to their habitations, or to their lawful business, upon the pains contained in the Act made in the first year of King George the First for preventing tumults and riotous assemblies. God Save the King.&&&&Viva la revolution!

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Reply #19 - Jun 1^st, 2004 at 11:29pm

Felix/FFDS Offline
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Quote:

I have outlined what I am speaking of.

I really do think that ML417 is in drag for that pic.

It got me thinking, too, but I compared photos - all Merlin Spitfires also have that "bulge". Maybe it wasn't as pronounced in the I, II, and V, but the IX/XVI had it. Granted, it was much more pronounce on the Griffon-engined marks

You can see it in this one, too.

Felix/FFDS

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Reply #20 - Jun 2^nd, 2004 at 7:54am

HawkerTempest5 Offline
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This is TFC's MkXIV. In this shiny colour scheme the Griffon rocker cover bulges stand out quite well and you can see just how big they are.

ML417 clearly without big rocker covers bulges. The nose curves more and is wider behind the prop than on a MkV.

Just for comparison, BBMF's LFIXe. You can see from this angle the nose profile is exactly the same as on ML417.

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Reply #21 - Jun 2^nd, 2004 at 1:22pm

Woodlouse2002 Offline
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Fair enough. I'm happy now. Grin

Woodlouse2002 PITA and BAR!!!!!!!!&&&&Our Sovereign Lord the King chargeth and commandeth all persons, being assembled, immediately to disperse themselves, and peaceably to depart to their habitations, or to their lawful business, upon the pains contained in the Act made in the first year of King George the First for preventing tumults and riotous assemblies. God Save the King.&&&&Viva la revolution!

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Reply #22 - Jun 2^nd, 2004 at 2:34pm

HawkerTempest5 Offline
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Quote:

Fair enough. I'm happy now. Grin

That's what this foum is for pal, were all here to help each other. Wink

I love these discussions Grin

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Reply #23 - Jun 3^rd, 2004 at 1:26pm

xFLAMESx Offline
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WOW

- all this from a little quiz.
Thanx anyhow - i didn't know half of the stuff i just learnt.

Thanx. Carl

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Reply #24 - Dec 21^st, 2004 at 7:53pm

Merlin66 Offline
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Griffon v's Merlin nose bumps.....
Another thing which is a dead give away is the joint line between the side panels and the rocker cover top panel.
On the Merlin the joint is ABOVE the exhausts, whereas on the Griffon it is BELOW the exhausts. Look again at the Photos in this post. See the difference!

The "circular" cross section just in front of the Canopy, where the fuel tank(s) resided, transitioned into a far "squarer" top above the engine, infact this shape change is the the thing to look for on accurate models of the Spitfire.

Merlin66&&

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