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LearJet Misses ILS Approaches (Read 631 times)
May 24th, 2004 at 5:03pm

bcstover   Offline
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When I make ILS approaches with the autopilot in the FS2004 default Lear Jet, the plane looks like it's doing everything just fine, but it hits the ground about 1/2 mile short of the runway!  I hate it when that happens!  Anybody else have the same problem?  Fixes?
 
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Reply #1 - May 24th, 2004 at 5:44pm

GeneticA   Offline
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I have the same problem in FS2002. I guess the autopilot do not watch the glide slope carefully  Shocked

I usually have to correct the pitch with the joystick.
 

I'm trying to land&&This aeroplane of ours gracefully&&But it seems just destined to crash&&(Björk - So Broken)
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Reply #2 - May 25th, 2004 at 1:13am

Flapsup   Offline
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Watch your approach speed carefully and keep it up or you will drop like a rock. I'm assuming that this happens after you come off of auto throttle. I come off auto throttle far enough out to stabilize my approach speed manualy then I can deal with coming off of Auto Pilot and flaring much more easily. Also make sure you are "arming spoilers" and not "deploying spoilers", It can be a disasterous mistake. Arming is usually "shift/" and deplying is just "/".
 
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Reply #3 - May 25th, 2004 at 1:36am

GeneticA   Offline
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I switch off the autopilot and autothrottle just before I start my descent for approach, but I watch my speed carefully.

On short final I try to have a speed of 155-160 KIAS. I don't think this is slow for a 737. It may even be a bit high, I'm not sure.

Spoilers are not deployed as well. I have a button assigned on the joystick to arm the spoilers.

By the way, bcstover: Does this happen only with the Lear Jet? I'll check if I have this problem with others, as well.
 

I'm trying to land&&This aeroplane of ours gracefully&&But it seems just destined to crash&&(Björk - So Broken)
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Reply #4 - May 25th, 2004 at 5:02am

Flapsup   Offline
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if you are using the ILS why are you coming off autopilot before decent? Why arent you using  approach to establish you on the glide slope and ride it down to just off the runway.
 
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Reply #5 - May 25th, 2004 at 7:21am

GeneticA   Offline
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Quote:
if you are using the ILS why are you coming off autopilot before decent?

You got me wrong, or I couldn't explain well. I mean the Top of Descent point. Nothing to do with the ILS at that altitude  Grin.

When I'm getting closer to the TOD point (around 30-40 nm away from the airport, depends on the flight level I fly), I switch the autopilot off and start flying the rest of the route and the STAR (if I don't have the chart it is either the pattern entry or an ATC vectored approach)manually. After the last turn I make to turn to the runway heading, and get aligned with the rwy, I switch the autopilot on again, and press APP. Autothrottle remains off. It first seems to catch the glideslope but then falls short of the runway. It appears to be very slow to correct the errors.
 

I'm trying to land&&This aeroplane of ours gracefully&&But it seems just destined to crash&&(Björk - So Broken)
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Reply #6 - May 25th, 2004 at 8:51am

garymbuska   Offline
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It sounds to me that your speed is a factor.
What flap setting are you using. If you use full flaps you can go slower and still stay airborne But you have to watch for stalls. The other thing that could effect this would be your altimeter setting if this is not right it could cause problems.
You have to constatly adjust power in order to make the runway. If you are not adjusting power you will allmost always wind up short.
If you have a chance to get close enough to a real airport try watching the real thing and if you listen you will hear the engines as the pilot adjust power .
I am constantly switching between full power and flight idle as I approach the run way once over the thresh hold I hit F1 then glide in 8)
 
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Reply #7 - May 25th, 2004 at 9:04am

YodaNYC   Offline
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I have found that sometimes the autopilot cannot be trusted to fly the ILS correctly.  Often the plane makes a late descent causing too steep of a descent angle and a short landing (as you described above).  In my view, there is no substitute for flying the ILS manually.

Practice flying the ILS manually, making small adjustments to the glideslope once you are established and you should land comfortably just over the threshold every time.
 
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Reply #8 - May 25th, 2004 at 9:46am

GeneticA   Offline
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Quote:
What flap setting are you using. If you use full flaps you can go slower and still stay airborne But you have to watch for stalls. The other thing that could effect this would be your altimeter setting if this is not right it could cause problems.
You have to constatly adjust power in order to make the runway. If you are not adjusting power you will allmost always wind up short.

Flaps are at 30 (B737). Altimeter setting is correct. But I couldn't figure out how altimeter setting could affect this? I'm adjusting the power trying the match the 155-160 KIAS. I'll try to land with authrotlle on tonight and see if this is the problem.

Quote:
If you have a chance to get close enough to a real airport try watching the real thing and if you listen you will hear the engines as the pilot adjust power .

I wish I had  Sad. I sometimes pass by a small airport on the way home, but only small propeller aircraft flies there (its rare also).

Quote:
Practice flying the ILS manually, making small adjustments to the glideslope once you are established and you should land comfortably just over the threshold every time.

Since ILS is notworking as I'd want, I'm doing manual ILS aprroaches. I'm trying to improve myself. But, if I set the visibility same as the minima for the approach, I cannot land the plane manually, I need more practice to follow the localizer.
 

I'm trying to land&&This aeroplane of ours gracefully&&But it seems just destined to crash&&(Björk - So Broken)
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Reply #9 - May 25th, 2004 at 10:03am

YodaNYC   Offline
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Try landing with the weather turned off.  Once you get the hang of the localizer and glideslope, turn the weather settings back on.  You'll be able to land in CAT III conditions in no time!
 
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Reply #10 - May 25th, 2004 at 10:30am

GeneticA   Offline
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If I turn the weather off, then I find myself cheating  Roll Eyes by looking outside the window, then I have no problem in landing.

Anyway I need practice Smiley.
 

I'm trying to land&&This aeroplane of ours gracefully&&But it seems just destined to crash&&(Björk - So Broken)
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Reply #11 - May 25th, 2004 at 10:47am

garymbuska   Offline
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One other suggestion turn on the visual flight path using rectangles or hoops set the number of guides to max this will put a set of rectangles or hoops that you can see try to stay in the middle of these and you will make a perfect landing every time. 8)
These can be found in the aircraft tab on the main menu.
I have found these to be a great tool in learning the correct approach path. 8)
I would stay away from using auto throttle this is only going to make it harder for you.
PS
Rember auto pilot is not auto land. A lot of people think that by using the approach button that the plane will land itself. This is not true. As the button says APPROACH it will put you on the glide slope but will not autoland. FS2004 does not have that feature.
A true autoland system does everything from lowering flaps gear and adjusting power during descent it also goes into reverse thrust by its self. The pilot does not have to touch anything. The only thing autoland will not do is to taxi the aircraft to the gate.
 
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Reply #12 - May 25th, 2004 at 11:24am

Nexus   Offline
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A true autoland system follows the slope and localizer and flares some 45ft above the runway....
Pilots still have to control gear, flaps and reverse thrust.
Speed is maintained thru the autothrust system and disengages after touchdown

Just wanted to point that out  Smiley
 
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Reply #13 - May 25th, 2004 at 1:27pm

atotti2000   Offline
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hold on a minute nexus! you mean i can get planes to pretty much land themselves on auto pilot? Shocked
 

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Reply #14 - May 25th, 2004 at 1:43pm

YodaNYC   Offline
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I have heard from real Airbus pilots that autoland can make for a real bumpy landing and increased braking.  Landing speed is typically greater using autoland than manual ILS.
 
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Reply #15 - May 25th, 2004 at 2:02pm

Nexus   Offline
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Boeing recommends  vref+5 during automated ILS approaches, yes that is 5 kts faster than VREF but not a whole lot. Airbus has  a similar system with VAPP and VLS.

Braking action is not greater during autoland, you still select autobrakes and they apply a constant brake pressure, regardless if the approach was auto or manual...however the braking distance may be a little bit longer, but that´s almost obsolete  Smiley


 
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Reply #16 - May 25th, 2004 at 2:55pm

Flapsup   Offline
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Try doing an approach entirely on auto pilot all the way down from cruise until short final. APP is also a setting of the auto pilot. usually when you turn onto your last ATC vector or shortly there after you can go to APP and if you are initially below the glidepath as FS9 will place you, the aircraft will aquire the glideslope and bring you down it. On short final go to manual throttle and at about 50' elev. turn off auto pilot and flare.  It works all the time for me with everything from the Lear to the 747.  MS9 is set up to aquire the glideslope from below.
 
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Reply #17 - May 25th, 2004 at 4:51pm

GeneticA   Offline
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OK. I have tried it. Here are the results.

First I made an approach in the usual way I do. That is I turn off the autopilot and autothrottle before TOD point. Then I flew the STAR. Turned to final and hit approach. Ofcourse to catch the glideslope, I was below the glideslope a bit. What happens is that, the autopilot makes a descent at about 400-500 fpm when it is below the glideslope. So it takes some time to catch the glideslope. If you made an relatively short final then you may end up landing before rwy.

Then I made a second flight. This time I made everything same as before but activated altitude hold during the last turn. This way the plane kept going level until catching the glide slope. After catching the glideslope the altitude hold turned off automatically and the plane started its descent on the glide slope. And I made a perfect landing.

I guess, the point is to activate the altitude hold before the last turn.
 

I'm trying to land&&This aeroplane of ours gracefully&&But it seems just destined to crash&&(Björk - So Broken)
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Reply #18 - May 25th, 2004 at 5:08pm

YodaNYC   Offline
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For accuracy, you should check the approach plates once you are given the STAR and runway vectors.  This way you will know exactly at what altitude you should be at the outer and middle markers for a given airport.
 
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Reply #19 - May 25th, 2004 at 5:09pm

atotti2000   Offline
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so can you actually use aoutopilot to land?? Roll Eyes
 

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Reply #20 - May 25th, 2004 at 5:50pm

Nexus   Offline
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Okay anthony here's the hard facts Wink

Yes - it's very possible to land with autopilot. Although the function is simplified in the Simulators stock aircrafts, you can still execute safe landings in bad weather.  Smiley

Search the forum you'll find tons of posts about this Smiley
 
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Reply #21 - May 25th, 2004 at 5:59pm

atotti2000   Offline
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thanks nexus. ill keep searching : Grin
 

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