I bumped into an old friend today. While we were chatting he mentioned that he was very doubtful of the claim that WWI combat sometimes took place at extreme altitudes like 20,000 feet. He & his brother decided to check this out on a Tiger Moth some years ago. He told me that by the time they had struggled up to 12,000 feet they were almost out of fuel & the aircraft was wallowing around & almost uncontrollable. This is something I was aware of but never really thought about before. Any comments?

This is Vic Wheele, the friend I mentioned. I've known him for over 40 years. Now in his late 70s he's a highly experienced pilot & not prone to telling tall stories. With the things he's done he doesn't have to.



PS. He also told me he had his first flight in a Supermarine Walrus from Shoreham in 1942. He was a 16 year-old air cadet.

I agree Woody. We also discussed that point although many things were done in the old days that wouldn't be considered or allowed now.

I agree with you guys.  I really doubt that those old dogflights took place above 10,000 very often-let alone 20,000.  Not only a lack of oxygen but I just don't see those little planes struggling up there.

I always assumed that the majority of dogflights took place near the ground-that would explain why so many WWI aircraft were destroyed by ground machine gun fire.

Well Folks:  those I have spoken too say the average altitude was between 3 and 8 thousand feet...over 12,500 feet you require oxygen, the climb rate on most of those aircraft would not make it practicable as fuel was always a factor along with the winds.  The winds did not favour the Allies...the stronger the wind which increases with altitude the more fuel burn.
Staggered formations were flown so that the low formation could protect the reconnaissance aircraft and the upper flight could protect the lower flight providing that was the mission.
The cold (temperature) was another factor...now correct me if I am wrong but I believe for every thousand feet in elevation the temperature drops three degrees.  That plays hell on a pilot and aircraft.
My Grandfather and two great uncles were flyers in the First World War and they were there prior to the beginning until the end and up to 1924.  I could ask my brother to check their log books as that stuff always goes to the oldest male in our family.  I do recall at a family reunion when they found out I was joining the RCAF that we were always at a disadvantage until we got the Sopwith Tripe, SE5A, Camel and Bristol.  That reunion was over thirty-five years ago so that is about all that stayed in my pointy little head that I remember now.
I will try to find some more information if you like from the museum and will pass it on to you.

Cheers...Happy Landings...Doug

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Yes, Doug, Ozzy would like some proof that there were people actaully flying before Reggie invented the Spitfire ...

It would be great if you can get more details Doug. The only reason I asked about this is that Vic specifically mentioned it.

We were talking about the old days when his brother Ron was alive. They must have read reports of combat actually taking place at these altitudes which is why they decided to try it out for themselves. OK, the Tiger Moth might not have the same performance as a Camel or Fokker D.VIII, especially with 2 people aboard, but it would give a pretty good idea of what it was like. I know about the temperatures but those WWI pilots were used to extreme cold. (I've read about early high altitude Spitfires in WWII that had no heating for the pilot.)

The main thing he was concerned about was the time it took to get to 12,000 feet & the fact that it used up almost all their fuel. The Tiger has a maximum 2 1/2 hour range in normal circumstances. He said that the aircraft was almost uncontrollable & it would have been impossible for them to go any higher. He couldn't see how it would have been possible to fight at even that altitude.

Thanks Doug

Next time I see Vic I'll ask him for more details. He definitely mentioned 20,000 feet. I seem to remember reading similar reports myself many years ago but I forget what it was all about now. Hope his memory is better than mine.