Simviation Forum - this pisses me off and makes the game half as fun

Reply #30 - Apr 1^st, 2004 at 7:27pm

JBaymore Offline
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Roller,

Quote:

Hmmmm

I know where you're coming from John but I still have to disagree with you and I'll try to explain why.

The FS progs are classified as games and if you see them that way OK. Maybe they started out that way but I happen to believe that over the years mainly because of the demands made by the users themselves, they have transcended mere computer gaming to become something of much greater value.

Maybe my thoughts are getting mixed up a bit here in the complexity of views on the thread. Wink

I certainly do not view the simulator as a game..... although it is also certainly not a "life and death" serious pursuit. So I am not advocating that the flight sim series (as opposed to the combat sim series) be looked at as a "game".

I also wonder if this thread would have gone the way it has if the "header" topic had been phrased differently Wink

?

Quote:

Also the hundreds of thousands of developers who devote, mostly voluntarily, a great part of their lives to creating addons of all kinds to make the sims more real also must see the progs in a particular way.

Exactly one of my points. All of those people attempting to add to the realism factor of the sim is a wonderful thing. One of those realism factors can be more realistic crash effects. I have never seen a plane that crashed simply sticking out of the runway basically fully intact with a little green "CRASH" banner poping up near it Wink

. They break up. Parts get bent. Parts fall off. Sometimes they burn. Sometimes they explode. The one thing they don't do is what Microsoft put into the sim.

......continued below...........

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Reply #31 - Apr 1^st, 2004 at 7:27pm

JBaymore Offline
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.................continued from above..............

Quote:

This is not to say that M$ don't have a gamey approach - they have the Combat Flight Sims - but I for one have no interest in those whatsoever. Clearly the way M$ do those is quite different from the way they have done FS9, FS2002, FS2000 and so on.

I too do not have much interest in combat sims. I also do not play "shoot em' ups" on the computer. In fact....I don't play computer "games" at all. The only thing that I do that is vaguely anything like that is fly the simulator.

Quote:

Now if as users we change our stance and begin to let M$ think that OK, the flight sims are just games, that's what I think we will eventually get. But as it is, because most users see them as being 'serious' applications, it constantly encourages M$ to strive for new levels of 'true' realism and not just 'trashy' visual effects.

Unfortunately some would say that a "trashy" visual effect is stuff like the "Maid of the Mist" that goes around at Niagra Falls in a totally unrealistic manner. But hey.... I think they should add ALL those kinds of things (with attention to framerates of course). And then add the sliders to activate or deactivate them, to match user preference.

The more Microsoft does.... the better the "base" that the add-on developers start with Grin

.

Quote:

A lot of people on the forum complain about ATC and say they switch it off. If they had got their way M$ would never have done it and the 'serious' users would have been the losers. This is just one of many examples of M$ going the extra mile which maybe they other wise might not have.

My guess is that of the total number of units of the simulator that are sold worldwide........ for years far more units go to people looking at them more as "games" than "seriously". Yet Microsoft still seems to keep it more rooted in the simulation field.

Quote:

So there you are. That's why I think we DO have to draw a line. If third party developers want to create 'crash effect add-ons' and some people want to install em, that's fine by me. But I want - nay insist - that M$ continue devoting their programming horsepower to more worthwhile aspects of realism.

I don't think we really disagree all that much, Roller. When it comes to Microsoft's part in all this..... I guess it all comes down to the word "worthwhile" in your sentence above. You spent an amazing amount of time getting Kai Tak to visually look the way it does. Would you tend say that it would be good if Microsoft put more like that level of attention into the scenery it creates?

There are some in the sim community that would say that all that "eye candy" that makes it look so real (and potentially hits the framerates) is not "worthwhile" either. All you really need to "land" there are the nav devices to be accurate, the runway heading and location to be accurate, the weather to be accurate, and a few structures and mouintains to make the weird approach as difficult as it was.

Quote:

Many years ago I was lucky enough to get my hands on the British Caledonian (as it then was) DC10 simulator at Gatwick and shoot the Kai Tak Rwy 13 approach. If I'd crashed it, which I'm glad to say I didn't, I don't think I and the others on the 'flight deck' would have seen a display of smoke and flames, but I don't think our suspension of disbelief in the realism was any the worse for that.

I really don't know about that. Of course such a simulator would really increase the realism all by itself. But think about how in training police officers and military and such, simulated "live fire" (and even real live fire) is frequently used to "up" the immersion in the "reality" of the training exercise. This is done for a very good reason.

Have you ever flown the sim with the sound off? It is amazing how much that detail adds. Every little added detail increases the sense of reality.

Quote:

I know, of course, that many forum members will disagree with all of this, especially a lot of the younger ones. But maybe a few others with the mellowness and wisdom of the years under their belts will find it easier to understand my point of view.

That is the beauty of the simulation........ you can install add-ons and controllers and simpits and such to your hearts content and make the sim as real as you want it to be. And you are right........ many forum members will have a different view on the contribution that crash effects might make. But as one who is well over 50........ I still feel that crash effects make another nice contribution to the sim.

best,

.......................john

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Reply #32 - Apr 2^nd, 2004 at 3:41am

Smoke2much Offline
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Go into politics John. I'd vote for you and I'm on a different continent.

Who switched the lights off? I can't see a thing....... Hold on, my eyes were closed. Oops, my bad...............&&

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Reply #33 - Apr 2^nd, 2004 at 9:40am

RollerBall Ex Member

Final word on this

I would still find it morally indefensible for M$ to devote programming time to 'eye candy' that in the case of a heavy would in real life result in the deaths of 600 or so people.

Tell me, just how many body parts should they include in this effect in the pursuit of more realism? And should the plane just explode on impact making a pretty ball of flame or should it roll along the ground breaking up (hey that would be good, very realistic!) spewing out burning fuel, bodies and passengers still in their seats?

Do a Google search on ci611.avi. It'll take you to a vid clip that's 9mb so I can't put it on my website for you to see. It shows just how horrific this so-called 'eye-candy' is in reality and how the people who witnessed it were shocked and traumatised by the experience as the sound track shows. Hardly the stuff of any 'game' I'd like to play. I don't refer you to it with any pleasure but thankfully this time only 3 people died in the resulting inferno.

When I go to films I personally don't need to see the Straw Dogs approach to realism and this for me falls into the same category. It's a further small brutalisation of human nature I think. And just so you can really put me neatly into the right box, I also don't happen to approve of c/games like Vice City and Grand Theft Auto for which the evidence now shows that they and similar 'games' are having a profoundly negative effect on the way our kids are thinking and behaving in real life.

« Last Edit: Apr 2^nd, 2004 at 11:08am by N/A »

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Reply #34 - Apr 2^nd, 2004 at 10:53am

SaVas Offline
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I personally chose FS9 because I wanted to get as close to a flying experience as I could since I dont have the time to go out and get a pilots license. being an artist my imagination takes over when I fly in FS9 and I can almost imagine myself being there.

I also have a freeware crash effects program, however I like John, only use it when there is a pilot error, or something goes wrong with the plane and I have little chance of controlling it and it goes down. I will try everything in my power to get my virtual plane on the ground safely.

I dont really consider FS9 a game persay, but a means of living a dream cheaply (though getting more expensive since Im addicted to payware planes lol)

I guess it boils down to when I first installed the crash effects program. I took off with a heavy and watched from the tower view, the plane take off, make a hard bank and go nose first into the ground. It sent chills up my spine, and I havent done that again.

Sure I have crashed a bunch of planes since I started flying the sim, however my virtual piloting skills have gotten a lot better so hopefully I will have a nice clean piloting record

My life is like the movie Office Space

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Reply #35 - Apr 2^nd, 2004 at 12:02pm

pointerboat Offline
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FS9 is a flight simulator . It is non-competitive in nature and so , should not be defined as a "game". Also , "u'r" writing skills are deplorable . Perhaps u r seeking satisfaction within the wrong venue .

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Reply #36 - Apr 2^nd, 2004 at 12:18pm

RollerBall Ex Member

Wow we certainly beat this one to death didn't we?

Anyone feel like a beer?

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Reply #37 - Apr 2^nd, 2004 at 12:22pm

Smoke2much Offline
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The Unrepentant Heretic
Sittingbourne, Kent,

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I'll have a Kronenburg 1664 please.

Anyone else?

Who switched the lights off? I can't see a thing....... Hold on, my eyes were closed. Oops, my bad...............&&

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Reply #38 - Apr 2^nd, 2004 at 2:09pm

Billerator Offline
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I'm a Guinness man myself

.

I think its time to put this toppic away in the attic somwhere and let the spiders take care of it.

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Reply #39 - Apr 2^nd, 2004 at 9:22pm

dave3cu Offline
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Procrastinate now, don't
put it off.
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Cant we let this die....
Either that or make it a sticky.........

Or get an X-box!!!!!!!!!

At that time [1909] the chief engineer was almost always the chief test pilot as well. That had the fortunate result of eliminating poor engineering early in aviation. Igor Sikorsky

I intend to live forever....so far, so good. Steven Wright

You know....you can just rip up a to-do list.

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Reply #40 - Apr 2^nd, 2004 at 10:10pm

JBaymore Offline
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Quote:

When I go to films I personally don't need to see the Straw Dogs approach to realism and this for me falls into the same category. It's a further small brutalisation of human nature I think. And just so you can really put me neatly into the right box, I also don't happen to approve of c/games like Vice City and Grand Theft Auto for which the evidence now shows that they and similar 'games' are having a profoundly negative effect on the way our kids are thinking and behaving in real life.

Roller,

We are 100% in agreement on the "Straw Dogs" type movie. And on stuff like "Grand Theft Auto"....and so called "shooters" like "Doom" and that whole genre'.

I am sorry if I have offended you in our discussion...... I was merely sharing a slightly differing point of view. There is in my mind absolutely no need to show bodies and such..... the mere presence of the somewhat "sterile" crash effects that are already included in the add-ons provide all the "realism" that is needed to have one's mind "fill in the blanks".

I haven't "played" the quite pervasive M$ combat flight sims........ but one hopes that they are leaving more of the actual reality of "war" simulations out than stuff like "Doom". The body counts, attrocities, and mayhem in simulating war at any kind of realism would make a civillian plane crash seem pretty mild.

Anyway...... sorry again. End of my posts on this subject.

best,

...................john

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Reply #41 - Apr 2^nd, 2004 at 11:15pm

dodger Offline
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Well, just read this topic, and if the horse ain't dead yet it most certainly needs the vet. The thing that impressed me here was our ability to hold these varied opinions as well as discuss them publicly (in a sense) We are indeed fortunate to live in a society that allows these freedoms. Skittles comment about that put it in a nutshell. Thanks, people!!

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