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Identity crisis (Read 2365 times)
Mar 5
th
, 2004 at 3:37pm
ozzy72
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Okay, this is a v.unusual plane, I want type and model number!!! This is not as easy as it looks
Ozzy
Ps. Hawker, no playing or helping as you already know this one
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Reply #1 -
Mar 5
th
, 2004 at 3:41pm
Craig.
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is it a hurricane?
although those look a little like WW1 uniforms. or i am going blind
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Reply #2 -
Mar 5
th
, 2004 at 3:43pm
ozzy72
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A Hurri?! Err Craig what have you been drinking this evening?
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Reply #3 -
Mar 5
th
, 2004 at 3:55pm
Craig.
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urmmm..
i am no good with ID'ing these aircraft, new aircraft a little better. ok given your history, i am going for an early version of a spitfire, urm Mk1?
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Reply #4 -
Mar 5
th
, 2004 at 4:13pm
SilverFox441
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Spitfire (Type 349) Mk Vb with desert air filter.
Steve
(Silver Fox)
Daly
&&
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Reply #5 -
Mar 5
th
, 2004 at 4:15pm
ozzy72
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Neither right so far
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Reply #6 -
Mar 5
th
, 2004 at 4:30pm
Felix/FFDS
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What's throwing me off is the combination of the 3-bladed prop and the multi-ejector exhaust - I'd call it an MkXII (clipped wing) with a 3-bladed prop.
Felix/
FFDS
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Reply #7 -
Mar 5
th
, 2004 at 4:35pm
ozzy72
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Nope
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Reply #8 -
Mar 5
th
, 2004 at 5:01pm
Jaffa
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A Spitterschmit?
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Reply #9 -
Mar 5
th
, 2004 at 6:07pm
Felix/FFDS
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Seafire L MkIIIc?
Felix/
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Reply #10 -
Mar 5
th
, 2004 at 6:13pm
Woodlouse2002
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Well, a Spitfire, with a Vokes Aero-Vee filter. It has an asymetric air intake thing and oil cooler layout which makes me think MkV. It has two cannon and it seems to have at least two machine guns out board in the wings. So I would think it's a LF.MkVB/C.
Also with that weather I would think it's operating either in Italy or Burma. The photo's fairly late war as there are plenty of four bladed prop aircraft in the background.
Anyway. My guess is a Spitfire LF.MkV with either a b or c wing.
Woodlouse2002 PITA and BAR!!!!!!!!&&&&Our Sovereign Lord the King chargeth and commandeth all persons, being assembled, immediately to disperse themselves, and peaceably to depart to their habitations, or to their lawful business, upon the pains contained in the Act made in the first year of King George the First for preventing tumults and riotous assemblies. God Save the King.&&&&Viva la revolution!
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Reply #11 -
Mar 5
th
, 2004 at 6:14pm
Craig.
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is it a recon spitfire?
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Reply #12 -
Mar 5
th
, 2004 at 6:21pm
Fozzer
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...with all that water and mud around, I would go for an early version of "Wellington" boots...?
LOL...LOL...LOL...
...!
Paul.
Dell Dimension 5000 BTX Tower. Win7 Home Edition, 32 Bit. Intel Pentium 4, dual 2.8 GHz. 2.5GB RAM, nVidia GF 9500GT 1GB. SATA 500GB + 80GB. Philips 17" LCD Monitor. Micronet ADSL Modem only. Saitek Cyborg Evo Force. FS 2004 + FSX. Briggs and Stratton Petrol Lawn Mower...Motor Bikes. Gas Cooker... and lots of musical instruments!.... ...!
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Reply #13 -
Mar 6
th
, 2004 at 5:09am
ozzy72
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So far there are no winners of the Clever Clogs prize
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Reply #14 -
Mar 6
th
, 2004 at 11:45am
Silent Exploder
Ex Member
All I can say is: This is definately no Messerschmidt.
I'd go for a Spit Mk II with a desert air filter.
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Reply #15 -
Mar 6
th
, 2004 at 11:47am
Steve-O
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Is it a Seafire II fitted with a tropical filter and clipped wings?
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Reply #16 -
Mar 6
th
, 2004 at 11:56am
ozzy72
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Steve-O wins the Clever Clogs award, it is indeed a Seafire II with the clipped wings (incredibly rare!) and the Vokes filter.
Well done that man
Oh and this photo was taken in '44 at a small refit base in France.
Ozzy
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Reply #17 -
Mar 6
th
, 2004 at 12:03pm
HawkerTempest5
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When Mark first sent me this photo it was a real mystery! Seafire LF MkIIc with trop filter and invasion stripes. Shame I can't see it's code letters (other than the aircraft letter) and serial numbers as it would make a great subject for a model.
Flying Legends
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Reply #18 -
Mar 6
th
, 2004 at 4:16pm
Woodlouse2002
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But what about the helmet on the dude with his hands up... It certainly isn't british.
Woodlouse2002 PITA and BAR!!!!!!!!&&&&Our Sovereign Lord the King chargeth and commandeth all persons, being assembled, immediately to disperse themselves, and peaceably to depart to their habitations, or to their lawful business, upon the pains contained in the Act made in the first year of King George the First for preventing tumults and riotous assemblies. God Save the King.&&&&Viva la revolution!
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Reply #19 -
Mar 6
th
, 2004 at 4:57pm
HawkerTempest5
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Quote:
But what about the helmet on the dude with his hands up... It certainly isn't british.
Maybe he's French? The chaps sitting on and holding the wing look like they have British Army helmets on and you can see at least four Spit IX's behind so it's certainly a British facility.
I should point out that this is the only picture of a IIc with a trop filter I've ever seen. And the fact that it's obviously being used in the European theater just deepens the mystery.
«
Last Edit: Mar 6
th
, 2004 at 6:57pm by HawkerTempest5
»
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Reply #20 -
Mar 6
th
, 2004 at 5:06pm
ozzy72
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Roger I've been pondering this little mystery for a while, do you think it might be one of the ones built and allocated to N. Africa or the Malta campaign that didn't get delivered?
I think the lid on the guy in the foreground of the shot is French. Although my knowledge of French headgear is rather limited......
Mark
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Reply #21 -
Mar 6
th
, 2004 at 5:12pm
Hagar
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The only FAA Squadron equipped with the Seafire IIc on the appropriate date appears to have been 807.
http://www.fleetairarmarchive.net/Squadrons/807.html
Quote:
Aircraft
Fulmar I Sept 1940-April 1941
Fulmar II April 1941-June 1942
Sea Hurricane Nov 1941- Nov 1941
Seafire Ib June 1942 -Sept 1942
SeafireL.IIc June 1942 -Oct 1944
SeafireL.III June 1944 -end of WW2
Quote:
the whole squadron took part in the South of France Operation Dragoon landings in HMS Hunter in August 1944, when the squadron inflicted considerable damage to locomotives and road transport.
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Reply #22 -
Mar 6
th
, 2004 at 5:12pm
Woodlouse2002
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It's not a french lid, i'm quite sure of that. I'm thinking that it might be Italian. There would certainly be more need for a tropical filter in Italy.
Also the fact that this aircraft is a Seafire MkII with filter etc. Surely your going on the type of aircraft it is by the caption to the picture where ever you got it from? Therefore it could very easily be a mistake.
Woodlouse2002 PITA and BAR!!!!!!!!&&&&Our Sovereign Lord the King chargeth and commandeth all persons, being assembled, immediately to disperse themselves, and peaceably to depart to their habitations, or to their lawful business, upon the pains contained in the Act made in the first year of King George the First for preventing tumults and riotous assemblies. God Save the King.&&&&Viva la revolution!
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Reply #23 -
Mar 6
th
, 2004 at 5:19pm
ozzy72
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I doubt it, as the info comes from a friend who is an aircraft historian!!!
I think the helmet could be Dutch? Its not the Adrian (French) as that has a large strip front to back over the top... Hmm the helmet is proving more of a challenge than the plane
Hmm your ID makes sense Doug, but I'm trying to get more info out of my friend at the moment... Like Roger said, it could be an interesting project, now do Airfix make a Seafire II kit? 8)
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Reply #24 -
Mar 6
th
, 2004 at 5:33pm
Hagar
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How about a caption for that photo. Here's mine.
Don't shoot guys - I'll come quietly.
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Reply #25 -
Mar 6
th
, 2004 at 5:38pm
Woodlouse2002
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Quote:
I think the helmet could be Dutch? Its not the Adrian (French) as that has a large strip front to back over the top... Hmm the helmet is proving more of a challenge than the plane
If the infomation Hagar say's is true then that aircraft should be in the south of france. So a long way from Holland. What did the Vichy frech helmets look like? If its not that then i'm sticking with Italian.
Woodlouse2002 PITA and BAR!!!!!!!!&&&&Our Sovereign Lord the King chargeth and commandeth all persons, being assembled, immediately to disperse themselves, and peaceably to depart to their habitations, or to their lawful business, upon the pains contained in the Act made in the first year of King George the First for preventing tumults and riotous assemblies. God Save the King.&&&&Viva la revolution!
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Reply #26 -
Mar 6
th
, 2004 at 5:45pm
ozzy72
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The Adrian was used by both sides of the French and had its origins in WWI.
Could be one of the Dutch units that fought alongside the British, or it could be a capitulated Italian.... Hmm I really am flumoxed by this one....
Mark
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Mar 6
th
, 2004 at 5:48pm
Hagar
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I missed the most important part that could explain the tropical filter & the helmet. Here it is in full.
Quote:
Squadron detachments were lent to the Desert Air Force in Italy for several weeks in April 1944
, then the whole squadron took part in the South of France Operation Dragoon landings in HMS Hunter in August 1944, when the squadron inflicted considerable damage to locomotives and road transport.
Airfix only do the 1/48th scale FR.47. You would have to modify a Spitfire. They do a Mk Vb.
http://www.modernmodels.com/airfix001.htm
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Reply #28 -
Mar 6
th
, 2004 at 6:09pm
ozzy72
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Ah mystery solved as to the kites ID, but the helmet still puzzles....
Oh and I've got the Seafire III model by Airfix thanks Hagar, I'm painting the parts ready for assembly at the moment
Ozzy
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Reply #29 -
Mar 6
th
, 2004 at 6:22pm
Silent Exploder
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Definately not italian.
http://www.italianfront.com/reproheadgrPg2.htm
German helmets looked similar to this one,but only the ones from the eastern side after WW2.
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Reply #30 -
Mar 6
th
, 2004 at 6:26pm
Hagar
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Quote:
Ah mystery solved as to the kites ID, but the helmet still puzzles....
Does this look familiar?
WWII Italian M33 Army Helmet
With leather suspension and web chin strap.
Elements of 807 Squadron were based in Italy for several weeks. Of course, this might be completely irrelevant. There's no indication if the marshaller is anything to do with the squadron.
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Reply #31 -
Mar 6
th
, 2004 at 6:38pm
ozzy72
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It could well be THE ANSWER Doug, I know how many err souvenirs my great uncles acquired, including a Knights Cross and a few pistols etc etc... One of them did hand in the Panzerfaust when he found out how dangerous they were and his wife insisted it wasn't staying on the livingroom wall any longer
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Reply #32 -
Mar 6
th
, 2004 at 6:41pm
HawkerTempest5
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Guys, not Italy. That plane is in full invasion stripes and that places it in the ETO circa June 1944. It is certainly a MkIIc and not a Ib (six stack exhusts and it has a C wing fitted and only the IIc was used with clipped wings). My guess is that it was one of the aircraft used for target spotting. Both the RN and USN used Spitfire V's and Seafire II's for this duty arround D-Day and it simply could just be a plane borrowed from its unit for this duty as was the case with most aircraft used in this way.
Ozzy, the Airfix Spit Vc/Seafire L III kit has everything you need to build a Seafire Ib, IIc and IIIc right from the box. All you need is a third party set of decals.
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Reply #33 -
Mar 6
th
, 2004 at 6:50pm
Hagar
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Tempest. I'm not saying the photo was taken in Italy, simply that the squadron had served there previously with the DAF. This could explain the tropical filter & the helmet. It all seems to fit nicely - maybe too nicely.
Quote:
807 Squadron FAA
Aircraft
Fulmar I Sept 1940-April 1941
Fulmar II April 1941-June 1942
Sea Hurricane Nov 1941- Nov 1941
Seafire Ib June 1942 -Sept 1942
SeafireL.IIc June 1942 -Oct 1944
SeafireL.III June 1944 -end of WW2
Squadron detachments were lent to the Desert Air Force in Italy for several weeks in April 1944, then the whole squadron took part in the South of France Operation Dragoon landings in HMS Hunter in August 1944, when the squadron inflicted considerable damage to locomotives and road transport.
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Reply #34 -
Mar 6
th
, 2004 at 7:00pm
Woodlouse2002
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For some reason I feel that I can sit back and feel smug now....
Woodlouse2002 PITA and BAR!!!!!!!!&&&&Our Sovereign Lord the King chargeth and commandeth all persons, being assembled, immediately to disperse themselves, and peaceably to depart to their habitations, or to their lawful business, upon the pains contained in the Act made in the first year of King George the First for preventing tumults and riotous assemblies. God Save the King.&&&&Viva la revolution!
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Mar 6
th
, 2004 at 7:04pm
ozzy72
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Woodie aren't your legs numb enough already from sitting on that the piece of Royal Daltons finest for months on end?
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Reply #36 -
Mar 6
th
, 2004 at 7:06pm
HawkerTempest5
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Hagar old pal, I do agree with you about the 807 connection and I knew they used the IIc in the Med until around October '44 when they were replaced by the L IIIc. I still think this is a borrowed machine and that would explain the Vokes filter on a plane in the ETO.
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Reply #37 -
Mar 6
th
, 2004 at 7:08pm
Woodlouse2002
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I shall sit back and put my feet up atop the towel rail to get the circulation going. With a vast feeling of smugness still mind...
Woodlouse2002 PITA and BAR!!!!!!!!&&&&Our Sovereign Lord the King chargeth and commandeth all persons, being assembled, immediately to disperse themselves, and peaceably to depart to their habitations, or to their lawful business, upon the pains contained in the Act made in the first year of King George the First for preventing tumults and riotous assemblies. God Save the King.&&&&Viva la revolution!
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Reply #38 -
Mar 6
th
, 2004 at 7:13pm
Woodlouse2002
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I like jam.
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Quote:
Hagar old pal, I do agree with you about the 807 connection and I knew they used the IIc in the Med until around October '44 when they were replaced by the L IIIc. I still think this is a borrowed machine and that would explain the Vokes filter on a plane in the ETO.
But Hagar's info tells us that this squadron supported landings in the south of France. This with serving in the Med and Italy more than explains the filter and would explaint the invasion stripes. Anyway, I thought invasion stripes became standered for all aircraft in all theatres after a point.
Woodlouse2002 PITA and BAR!!!!!!!!&&&&Our Sovereign Lord the King chargeth and commandeth all persons, being assembled, immediately to disperse themselves, and peaceably to depart to their habitations, or to their lawful business, upon the pains contained in the Act made in the first year of King George the First for preventing tumults and riotous assemblies. God Save the King.&&&&Viva la revolution!
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Reply #39 -
Mar 7
th
, 2004 at 6:50am
HawkerTempest5
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Quote:
But Hagar's info tells us that this squadron supported landings in the south of France. This with serving in the Med and Italy more than explains the filter and would explaint the invasion stripes. Anyway, I thought invasion stripes became standered for all aircraft in all theatres after a point.
Woody, when was the last time you saw a Seafire or Hellcat or Coursair in the Pacific theater with invasion stripes? Invasion stripes were applied to allied aircraft taking part in operation Overlord. They were not used in any other theater of war again until Royal Navy aircraft used them during the Korean conflict. I'm not disputing the fact that 807 squadron served in Italy and North Africa, what I am disputing is that this photo was taken in Italy which it clearly was not. There is no evidence to say this is even an 807 squadron aircraft. I think it was Mark that said it could have been an aircraft intended for use in Malta but did not get delivered.
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Reply #40 -
Mar 7
th
, 2004 at 7:31am
ozzy72
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It could be a case of an emergency transfer. It wasn't unknown for sqns to swap aircraft to others when shortages prevailed, and this Seafire II could easily have ended up serving with an RAF sqn. briefly during overlord... If I find out anymore about this particular kite I promise I'll post it.
Ozzy
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Reply #41 -
Mar 7
th
, 2004 at 7:57am
Hagar
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Quote:
Invasion stripes were applied to allied aircraft taking part in operation Overlord. They were not used in any other theater of war again until Royal Navy aircraft used them during the Korean conflict.
I'm not sure this is quite correct Tempest. Invasion markings were certanly used on aircraft in the Sicily campaign in July 1943. This is besides the point. The question is - once aircraft in the ETO were painted with "D-Day" stripes were they ever removed & if so, when?
This is what Ozzy said about the photo in a previous reply.
Quote:
it is indeed a Seafire II with the clipped wings (incredibly rare!) and the Vokes filter.
Well done that man
Oh and this photo was taken in '44 at a small refit base in France.
Assuming this is true, what was a Seafire with a tropical filter doing in France with invasion stripes? I suggest my theory is as good as any & I'm surprised you can't see that.
We know that 807 Squadron used this particular mark of Seafire in support of Operation Dragoon which took place in August 1944.* That puts it in France, albeit in the South, at the right time. As this was a combined operation with US forces taking place a short time after D-Day I don't think it's unreasonable to suggest that the aircraft would also have the invasion stripes. If that was not the case the Seafire could have been sent to the refit base to have them painted on before being used elsewhere.
As for the helmet, if the marshaller is part of the squadron he could have picked it up when they served in Italy. This is less important as he might be someone on the base staff.
*PS Operation Dragoon (first named Anvil) was originally planned to coincide with the Normandy invasion.
Quote:
Planned originally as a simultaneous complement to OVERLORD, the cross-Channel attack on Normandy, ANVIL actually took place over two months later, on 15 August 1944, making it appear almost an afterthought to the main Allied offensive in northern Europe. Yet the success of ANVIL and the ensuing capture of the great southern French ports of Toulon and Marseilles, together with the subsequent drive north up the Rhone River valley to Lyon and Dijon, were ultimately to provide critical support to the Normandy-based armies finally moving east toward the German border.
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Reply #42 -
Mar 7
th
, 2004 at 9:06am
Woodlouse2002
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I'm with Hagar on this one. I'm sure by 1944 aircraft operating in southern europe would have had invasion stripes. It would make sense to do so if in north europe the fighters and AA gunners where blatting away at anything flying with out them. Therefore the presence of invasion stripes does not place the aircraft in Northern France.
However the only way to know for sure where the photo was taken is to find the guy who took it. And without him around I think its perfectly acceptable to guess it was taken in the south of france or Italy. Which would explain the tin hat and the Vokes filter.
Woodlouse2002 PITA and BAR!!!!!!!!&&&&Our Sovereign Lord the King chargeth and commandeth all persons, being assembled, immediately to disperse themselves, and peaceably to depart to their habitations, or to their lawful business, upon the pains contained in the Act made in the first year of King George the First for preventing tumults and riotous assemblies. God Save the King.&&&&Viva la revolution!
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Reply #43 -
Mar 7
th
, 2004 at 3:06pm
Hagar
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As an aside, I found a couple of interesting sites while researching all this. Here's a very interesting article on the Seafire. No author credited but it can only be by the great man himself, Eric "Winkle" Brown.
http://www.fiddlersgreen.net/aircraft/WWII/seafire/sea-info/sea_info.htm
This extract should amuse Ozzy.
Quote:
The Seafire L Mk IIC was the most exciting aircraft that I had flown to that time. Its initial climb rate and acceleration were little short of magnificent, and at maximum boost it could maintain 4,600 ft/mm (23,36 m/sec) upto 6,000 ft (1 830 in).
.................
My enthusiasm for this new Seafire variant was such that, one afternoon, in sheer exhilaration, I looped it around both spans of the Forth Bridge in succession - court-martial stuff nowadays but during a war nobody has the time to bother with such formalities.
This comment made me wonder why RAF pilots would need to know how to trap on a carrier.
Quote:
Between 29 December 1942 and 3 January 1943, I had had the task of giving Seafire deck landing instruction to No 65(F) "East India" Squadron, RAF
He mentions another incident very similar to the one with AB910.
Quote:
It was about this time that I witnessed a very unusual incident at Machrihanish when the airfield was alerted that a Seafire being flown by Lt David Wilkinson (later to be killed in a flying accident) had a mechanic wrapped around its rear end! The mechanic, a rating appropriately enough named Overhead, had apparently been lying on the tail of the Seafire to hold it down while running up on the deck of a carrier in the Clyde area. Wilkinson had throttled back to let the mechanic off, but due to a misunderstanding, the mechanic had remained where he was and the Seafire had taken-off with him clinging on for dear life. The pilot could not account for the extraordinary tail-heaviness of his Seafire until he was alerted by radio of the situation. He promptly headed for Machrihanish at low level and slow cruise, the slipstream clamping the unfortunate mechanic in position. A straight-in approach to the runway and a wheeler landing to keep the tail up as long as possible, and the mechanic's ordeal was over - he suffered shock and the effects of cold, but was otherwise totally unhurt.
I also found this which seem to confirm that the Operation Dragoon aircraft had invasion stripes.
http://www.usaaftroopcarrier.com/Historical%20Overview.htm
Quote:
In an effort to prevent the "friendly fire" that downed so many TC aircraft in Sicily, USAAF and British aircraft were painted with large, easily recognizable black and white "invasion stripes" on their fuselages and wings. Nevertheless, navy gunners shot down six British troop carrier aircraft flying in a 50-ship serial on 7 June, as the final glider serials of NEPTUNE flew to their LZs.
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Reply #44 -
Mar 7
th
, 2004 at 5:10pm
HawkerTempest5
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I'm reasonably sure that the other type of invason stripes were different to the Overlord stripes, but I can't find a photo just now. In fact I'm sure these were Theater type stripes and were in other coloures as well as black and white.
Quote:
I'm not sure this is quite correct Tempest. Invasion markings were certanly used on aircraft in the Sicily campaign in July 1943. This is besides the point. The question is - once aircraft in the ETO were painted with "D-Day" stripes were they ever removed & if so, when?
Invasion stripes on Overlord aircraft were partially removed in July 1944 and fully in Jan 1945. Newly delivered aircraft in this period often did not have any stripes applied at all.
I'm not saying I'm correct or that anyone else is wrong or rigth, but I should point out that the caption with that photo says:
Quote:
A Seafire battles the mud at a repair and salvage unit in Normandy, July 1944
Anyway, whoever is right, I've enjoyed this little debate
Seafires are my "thing" at the moment and I'd love to find out more about this aircraft because as I said earlier, it would make a great subject for a model.
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Reply #45 -
Mar 7
th
, 2004 at 5:19pm
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Tempest, going by what you say we all have to bow down and say the caption is correct. And as I said the only way to prove this is to get the guy who took the photo to verify that. Intill then it is perfectly possible to say that the caption is wrong. Your bit about the theatre stripes may well be true. But I must point out to you that the picture is in black and white. So the stripes could be any colour...
Anyway, Hagar has just brought up an interesting point with me. Maybe the SeafireII is being handed in and the aircraft in the distance are the squadrons replacement SeafireIII's. Then it would be perfectly reasonable for the photo to be in Normandy. But then we get back to the tin hat...
Woodlouse2002 PITA and BAR!!!!!!!!&&&&Our Sovereign Lord the King chargeth and commandeth all persons, being assembled, immediately to disperse themselves, and peaceably to depart to their habitations, or to their lawful business, upon the pains contained in the Act made in the first year of King George the First for preventing tumults and riotous assemblies. God Save the King.&&&&Viva la revolution!
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Reply #46 -
Mar 7
th
, 2004 at 5:25pm
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I've enjoyed it too although we don't seem to agree on this one. I've found out a lot of stuff about the Seafire I didn't know before. I suppose we will never know the answer to this particular question.
I think that silly tin hat is a red herring myself. It could have come from anywhere & is not necessarily a clue.
PS. Ozzy said the base in the photo is in France. He didn't specify Normandy & France is a big country. It's quite possible it's a temporary MU set up for distributing new types to the squadrons.
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Reply #47 -
Mar 9
th
, 2004 at 6:27pm
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i think.. i think its a plane. a prop plane of the fighter variety. hah.
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Reply #48 -
Mar 11
th
, 2004 at 12:57pm
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It's definately not a Spitfire as the ends of the wings are square cut so there for its a clipper. Any brownie points?? Cant say any more than that. Sam
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Reply #49 -
Mar 12
th
, 2004 at 7:54am
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It's definately not a Spitfire as the ends of the wings are square cut so there for its a clipper. Any brownie points?? Cant say any more than that. Sam
You're right, it's not a Spitfire, it's a Seafire
Sorry no brownie points though. Oh, and lots Spits had clipped wings
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Reply #50 -
Mar 13
th
, 2004 at 6:07pm
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What's the difference between a spitfire and a seafire then as thel both look very similar! Sam
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Reply #51 -
Mar 14
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, 2004 at 7:00am
HawkerTempest5
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Quote:
What's the difference between a spitfire and a seafire then as thel both look very similar! Sam
Essentially they are the same, however the Seafire has been Navalised. It has an arrestor hook, strengthened rear fuselage and catapult spools fitted. Some also had anchor points for RATO packs.
The first Seafire, the MkIb was a modified Spitfire MkVb. It had no wing fold. The first purpose built Seafire was the MkIIc. Still no folding wing but had all the other Navalisation fittings. The first folding wing variation was the L MkIIIc. The first Griffon Seafire was the MkXV and this was based upon the MkXII. These are the only variations that saw service during WW2.
The Seafire in the photo is a MkIIc. Although you cannot see the arrestor hook, it clearly has a six-stack exhaust and a clipped C wing and these features make it a IIc.
Hope that clears it up a bit
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Reply #52 -
Mar 14
th
, 2004 at 9:51am
Hagar
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Hope I'm not adding to the confusion. Here's a photo of a Seafire L MkIIIc. Note the arrester hook, clipped wingtips & 4 bladed prop.
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Reply #53 -
Mar 14
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, 2004 at 3:00pm
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Nice try Hagar old chap
I'm 99.9% certain that is a IIc. Let me explain. Later clipped IIcs had Four bladed props. Also, it is thought that all IIIs were built without Cannon stubs and you can clearly see these on your photo. However I have a picture here of Seafire MkLIIIc LR838 with cannon stubs and a picture of NF547 with clipped wings and I am led to understand that all III had full wings??? I love this aircraft
Keep the theories coming guys as I am really into Seafires just now and am looking for information for a couple of modelling projects.
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th
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Reply #54 -
Mar 14
th
, 2004 at 3:18pm
Hagar
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LOL Maybe you're right Tempest. I ain't no expert on Seafires but I'm learning more every day.
Not sure where I found that pic now. I'm sure the caption says it's a MkIII.
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Reply #55 -
Mar 14
th
, 2004 at 3:35pm
Hagar
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I found the page. It definitely says it's a Mk III.
http://www.supermarine-spitfire.co.uk/supermarine_seafire.html
Maybe one of the Westland-built hybrid variants with the Merlin 55 but without folding wings. I believe these were later redesignated as MkII.
Meanwhile, here's another nice pic. Taken on HMS Formidable in Jan 1943. I keep meaning to ask Pip what happened to the one one he used as a sig before he went all patriotic.
PS. I just noticed these have the tropical air filters.
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Reply #56 -
Mar 15
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, 2004 at 5:14am
HawkerTempest5
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Hagar old chap, you are quite correct about the Hybrid IIIcs and that may well explain the first pic. That photo you just posted is of some real value to me. The Seafire in the forground on the left is MkIb MB345, the subject of my first Seafire model
Notice how the second aircraft has the full 885 NAS squadron codes and the other two just have the aircraft letter. That looks like a nasty hole in the engine cover on MB345, wounder what that is?
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Reply #57 -
Mar 15
th
, 2004 at 6:07am
Hagar
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Quote:
Hagar old chap, you are quite correct about the Hybrid IIIcs and that may well explain the first pic. That photo you just posted is of some real value to me. The Seafire in the forground on the left is MkIb MB345, the subject of my first Seafire model
Well how about that. Glad to help.
Quote:
Notice how the second aircraft has the full 885 NAS squadron codes and the other two just have the aircraft letter. That looks like a nasty hole in the engine cover on MB345, wounder what that is?
I did spot the difference in codes but missed the big hole. That looks a tad too close for comfort.
LOL
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Reply #58 -
Mar 15
th
, 2004 at 5:03pm
Sam 400
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Thanks for all the info, i'll share it with my mate who's a bit of a spitfire fanatic. Cheers for all the help guys. Sam
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